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 Tape number 8, an interview with a lady named Makower is being conducted by Joanna Wróblewska.

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 Would you like to introduce your family to us?

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 Here you can see my closest family, a daughter, a son and grandchildren.

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 I would like to start with my son, Józef Makower, born on February 18, 1949.

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 He is a doctor of medicine.

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 My daughter, Irena Makower, was born on July 7, 1950.

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 My grandson, Daniel Makower, was born on August 12, 1971.

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 Bartek Zuber was born on July 24, 1974.

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 My daughter, Kasia Zuber, was born on September 5, 1982.

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 My daughter, Irena Makower, was born on September 5, 1982.

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 This is where I would like to end my presentation of my grandchildren, because that's all.

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 Józef, I would like to ask you how you experienced your childhood as a child of parents who went through the ghetto.

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 Were you aware of it?

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 I was always aware of it, as far as I remember.

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 That my parents were in the ghetto, that he was running away from the ghetto, that he was hiding from the Poles in Miłosna.

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 And that my father's family and partly my mother's family died in Treblinka.

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 I was fully aware of it throughout my childhood.

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 When you went to school in Poland, did you feel different from your peers?

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 I was a bit of a different child, but not because I was Jewish or that my parents went through the war.

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 I thought I was a bit of a different child.

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 In which year and why did you come to Sweden?

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 I came in 1969, towards the end of the year, with the wave of emigration, mainly of Jewish youth, but also of other adult people.

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 Because of persecution during 1968-1969.

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 Personally, I was never persecuted, but what was happening in Poland at the time caused me to go to Sweden first as a tourist and then I met my future wife.

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 And then I came to her after a few months.

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 Your son Daniel is here with you today.

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 Because Daniel doesn't speak Polish, I would ask you to say a few words about him.

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 How much does he know about your past and the past of your grandparents?

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 It's a question of conscience, because I don't know exactly what he knows.

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 I've told him a lot of things.

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 He certainly doesn't know as much as I do, because he didn't learn directly from his grandmother, who doesn't speak Swedish well.

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 In Polish.

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 You don't speak Swedish well.

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 But he knows more facts about my family.

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 He knows more facts than I do.

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 Józef, as a Jew, did you try to raise Daniel when he was a child in the Jewish spirit?

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 And was he aware of your origin from Poland?

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 He was aware of my origin from Poland, that I was a Jew and that I left Poland for this reason, that I was a Jew.

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 However, our family was an emancipatory family, not an orthodox family.

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 And basically, I would say that Hitler said that they were Jews.

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 This whole identification and Jewishness mainly has to do with the war and Hitler, and less with deeper experiences.

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 That's how the family was.

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 So, as a child, you felt that you were very assimilated, you didn't feel different from the Poles.

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 No, no.

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 I wanted Daniel to be raised in the Jewish spirit.

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 And, among other things, I went to Hitler's Kowloon, and Daniel is very Jewish.

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 This is his fiancée, Hanna, from Poland.

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 Not from Poland, her parents are partly from Poland.

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 Do you feel at home?

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 Yes.

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 Because she was born here.

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 I feel more Jewish than my parents, and Daniel even more.

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 Thank you.

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 Irena, I would like to ask you now.

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 How young were you when you realized that you were Jews and not Catholics living in Poland?

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 We were Catholics because we went to church.

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 Our children went to church, and our parents slept on Sundays, and we went to church with Mrs. Lodzia and Kazia.

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 Because they were your guardians?

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 Yes, so it had nothing to do with Catholicism.

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 For me, religion and Judaism are two completely independent things.

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 The only thing is that we are Jews, and I knew that from the beginning. We always heard all the stories about the ghetto and the war while eating on Sundays.

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 We are named after those people from the family who died.

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 Józek is after Henryk's brother, and his sister had a daughter named Irena.

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 It was not at all pleasant to know that we were named that way.

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 It has to do with the fact that they were called that way. My father often talked about how his family brought his mother, his sister, and Irena to Auschwitz.

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 To Treblinka.

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 We always knew that, but it was very complicated.

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 We went to church, and we were also Jews.

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 My father was very proud that he was a Jew.

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 When we were talking to Mrs. Lodzia in the evening, she said, "Look, there's Henryk's shadow behind the door.

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 He doesn't want us to say 'paciorek', but we will say 'paciorek'."

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 That's how it was. It was complicated, but we never liked church, and Józek and I never believed in it.

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 We only did it because we were told to.

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 Would you say that you grew up without faith in God or in religion?

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 Without faith in any religion.

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 Did it ever bother you in your childhood?

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 Yes, it was very complicated, because everyone didn't believe in it, they liked it, it was all about communion and so on, and we were just different.

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 Did other children at school prevent you from feeling that way?

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 Elżunia Fabian, who was half-Jewish at the time, Elka Fabian, do you remember?

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 No, I don't.

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 Anyway, she was in school.

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 The first Jewish emigration was when I was in the second grade, and some of my friends went to Israel.

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 I remember a boy I fell in love with.

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 And then it started to get a little unpleasant.

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 Elżunia Fabian said that Irenka was a Jew, that Irenka didn't go to church.

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 Everyone goes to church, but Irenka doesn't like it, she doesn't go there, I don't know.

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 And finally her parents called and apologized, and they came to us, I remember.

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 Do you remember? He was a doctor.

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 I remember. Don't ask, because it's all recorded.

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 Did you experience anti-Semitism during your studies in Poland?

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 Anti-Semitism was an inseparable part of Poland.

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 We always had anonymous phones at home, always, since I remember.

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 At least since I started to wear headphones, every day, once a week, or something like that.

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 It was a part of it all.

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 But I didn't feel anti-Semitism in any special way.

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 On the contrary, I thought it was good for all my intellectual and snobby friends to have their own intellectual Jew,

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 and to have friends with him.

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 But I didn't know any Jews in Poland.

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 I didn't know any Jews in Poland.

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 So we were raised completely...

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 Because you didn't have any friends.

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 Yes, they left for Israel.

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 I didn't have any. There was a Jewish school in Wrocław, but I didn't know anything about it.

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 Now that you have two children, how old are they?

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 Bartek is 22, and Kasia is 14.

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 How do you try to raise them, and how much do they know about the fate of their grandparents?

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 It's very complicated. What was more complicated was the trip to Sweden.

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 I'm sorry, what year did you go to Sweden?

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 In '82. In '81.

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 Bartek was 7 years old at the time.

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 He didn't know I was a Jew at the time.

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 My husband, Zbyszek Zuber, is Polish.

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 He started going to first grade, and he was supposed to go to religion school.

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 We went to Sweden, and he had to adapt to Sweden.

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 I thought I wouldn't complicate his life by adding that I was a Jew.

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 But I was 11, 12, 13. Do you remember?

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 I have no idea.

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 Somewhere around that age, because I thought it was the time.

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 I told him everything. I talked to my mother, and so on.

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 It was the same with Kasia, when she was 11, 12.

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 I didn't want to complicate her life either.

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 It was complicated for her to the point where she was a double person.

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 I didn't want to add a third person to her.

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 Now that you live in Sweden, do you have any contact with the Jewish community or Jews in Sweden?

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 No, I don't have any contact with the Jewish community.

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 However, I know some Jews, just like any other person.

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 If I have a fate with someone I like, I contact them.

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 But I don't have any special contacts.

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 What holidays do you celebrate at home?

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 We celebrate Christmas, a normal Catholic Christmas.

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 Children love it.

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 We make poems for presents.

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 And we celebrate the New Year in a normal way.

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 Not Jewish.

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 We never celebrated it at home.

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 Thank you.

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 Bartek, now it's your turn.

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 Bartek, I would like to ask you.

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 Your mother told me that you were quite big when you came to Sweden.

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 And that you found out quite late about what your grandparents went through.

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 Did you think about their fates during the war?

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 Did you ask your grandmother these questions?

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 I don't remember exactly, but I don't think so.

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 Did you suspect as a child that your family was a bit different from others?

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 No, I didn't have a special interest in history.

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 I was more interested in biology and such things.

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 I didn't think about it, I didn't reflect on it.

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 I know that you are a biology student.

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 And that your grandfather, Henryk Makower, was a professor of microbiology.

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 He was a biologist.

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 Did the fact that your grandfather had this profession and position direct you?

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 Or is it completely independent?

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 No, no, I don't think it's completely independent.

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 I'm just curious.

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 I also study molecular biology, virology and microbiology.

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 Just like my grandfather.

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 But I don't think that's why he did it.

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 I'm just curious.

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 Maybe it's in the genes, I don't know.

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 At this moment, when you found out that your mother is Jewish,

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 did you start to think about what Judaism is?

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 Yes, I thought about it a bit.

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 We had a religion at school and I found out a bit about it.

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 But for me it only has a positive meaning.

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 I don't think about it.

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 Jews, people often look at them as quite intelligent.

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 Frank Bungsrich, I don't know.

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 For me it only has a positive meaning.

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 I never had any negative associations with Jews.

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 As if someone could say something to me.

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 You, who now live in Sweden,

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 have you come across Swedes who asked you about your origin?

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 I don't know if they asked, but it comes up sometimes when we talk.

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 And sometimes I say that I'm Jewish.

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 I haven't heard anything negative.

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 Only some people say, "Oh, you're Jewish, that's why you're so talented."

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 Do you believe that?

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 No, I don't know.

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 A lot of Jews are at home all over the world.

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 Genetically or not.

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 Or just as a family.

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 I don't know.

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 Do you sometimes discuss with your sister, who can't be here today,

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 the fate of your grandparents?

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 Have you read the books that were published by Noem and Macower?

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 I've read them.

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 Well, not all of them, but almost.

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 I've read almost both of them.

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 I liked them, I read quite a lot.

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 But I don't think she's particularly interested in them.

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 She's still quite childish.

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 I'm not particularly interested in them.

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 I'd rather be 100% Swedish if I didn't want to.

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 Now I'd like to go back to Noem and Macower.

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 Yes, I'd like to.

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 I'd like to ask you now, what would you like to pass on to your children and grandchildren?

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 I'll say it very briefly.

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 I'd like them to be decent people.

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 I think that's all.

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 As you know, I'm not interested in the law of faith.

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 I want them to be decent people

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 and, if possible, to learn a lesson that they can use for the good of others.

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 Thank you very much.

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 Tłumaczenie i transkrypcja: Krzysztof Czart

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