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 The fifth tape, an interview with Noemi Makower, is brought to you by Joanna Wróblewska.

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 I would like to return to the January action, which started at the beginning of 1943,

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 suddenly, in which the State of Jasuń and all the councillors of the Jewish Community were killed.

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 This action lasted for three days, and I was in the Faderka shop during this action.

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 But I didn't mention that our friends were killed, and their daughter-in-law Bronka,

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 whom I loved very much, who had blonde hair and blue eyes, could save her life.

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 They kept persuading her to do it, and she wanted to stay with her family.

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 Now I'm going back to the moment when we were in the Jewish police station,

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 and the officer asked us, "Why did you run away?"

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 My husband, with a dramatic gesture, took out the ID of the Jewish Community in his pocket,

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 saying that he was the coordinator of the Internal Affairs Department.

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 He said, "You don't do that. You don't run away when you know that this ID can betray you."

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 However, this was after the suicide of colonel Szelicki, the head of the Jewish police,

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 who was the cause of this suicide.

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 We all thought it was the end of the ghetto, and that's why we ran away.

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 At first, the officer listened very carefully to everything that my husband said.

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 He spoke German very well.

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 And as a proof of his respect for my husband, he told me to give him a chair and a glass of water.

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 After a while, we got back some of the things that had been stolen from us,

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 because the Germans managed to hide everything.

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 Among other things, I got my coat back.

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 The officer told me to return my coat and give him a glass of water and a chair.

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 After a while, when my husband found out that the suicide of colonel Szelicki was the cause of our escape,

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 he started to think deeply.

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 And before that, he said, "I'm returning your coat against the Fuehrer's order."

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 And the Fuehrer was surprised.

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 Then he thought deeply and said,

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 "I'm going to release you, and you'll be taken back to the SS base."

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 It was the worst base there could be.

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 But everyone thought that they would be disappointed on the way,

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 except for my husband, who thought he was telling the truth.

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 And that's how it was.

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 I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to go back to the suicide of Szelicki.

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 I have to tell you something.

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 On that night in January, he woke us up by knocking on the door.

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 That was the first time he did it, as I said.

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 And then, the second time, he knocked on my husband's door,

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 and he said that Szelicki had committed suicide,

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 and that he had to go to the basement.

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 It was in Nowolipki, and we were in Zamenhof.

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 He got dressed and left.

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 He meant, and he described it in his book,

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 that he repeatedly passed by Szelicki's house and thought about killing him.

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 Because he was a cold-hearted man.

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 He went to Umschlag and beat his shoes with a chisel.

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 And he behaved as if he didn't care about anything.

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 One of the hospital nurses, and they had already evacuated the hospital,

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 asked if she was going to take the children to the wagons.

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 And he said, "I'll give you an example, Korczak.

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 You can use that example."

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 So Maniek often thought about it.

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 But he was killed by someone else, by an unknown hand.

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 It was the insurgents in the ghetto who organized it.

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 They shot at him.

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 He was shot in the face.

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 But the shot only made him withdraw from work for a short period.

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 But he didn't die from it.

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 I'm sorry, was he treated after the shot by your husband?

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 No, no. He came and woke him up.

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 He told him to come, that Szelicki was going to die.

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 That he was close, that he was going to commit suicide.

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 I went with my husband.

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 There were about ten doctors in the room.

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 Among them was Dr. Brewda, who knew a lot of people.

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 She is no longer alive.

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 She was treating Szelicki.

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 She was also a police doctor.

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 My husband ordered one of the doctors, Dr. Willondo,

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 to do a transfusion.

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 Because he had no blood, it could have worked.

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 Of course, at the beginning, his condition improved a bit.

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 But he was unconscious and strong.

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 And it was obvious that it was all for nothing.

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 And next to him, his wife was sitting on the bed and praying.

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 Of course, she was a priestess.

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 And on the other bed, there was a daughter,

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 who my husband saved several times during his illness.

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 Because she had this duty as a police doctor.

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 So, Szelicki's suicide was an argument for an officer,

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 who didn't tell us to shoot, but to take us to the SS.

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 Excuse me, what was Szelicki wearing?

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 - A tank top. - A tank top.

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 He had it prepared just in case.

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 We are now in the SS camp.

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 All of us.

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 There were two SS men waiting for us.

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 Both of them spoke good Polish.

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 One had a tall, black, very intelligent face.

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 And the other had a short, blonde hair.

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 A tall, black man took command and ordered us to enter.

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 At first, they beat us all up.

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 But there were fewer women and more men.

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 The blond man was beating us.

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 He didn't move at all.

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 And then they put us in a room like a prison.

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 We were in a small, stone chair.

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 We were sitting on the chair and on the floor.

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 And the blond man called the women four times to a cell.

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 He said, "If you don't give everything back, I'll shoot you."

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 Four times.

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 When we were coming back after the fourth time,

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 I want to add that one time a gendarme was watching us.

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 He had blue eyes and he looked us in the eye.

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 He said in Polish, "I won't kill you until morning."

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 It meant that we still had 10 or 8 hours to live.

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 The women were begging the gendarmes for their lives.

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 And indeed, the black gendarme brought us to that room for the fourth time.

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 Before that, he didn't dare to say, "The men are gone."

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 When we entered the room, it turned out that the men were there.

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 But we were beaten and called many times.

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 I sat on the floor.

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 And we slept for a few hours.

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 Half in the yard, half in the village.

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 And in the morning, the Germans showed up.

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 Those who were in charge of resettlement.

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 It was obvious that they were the militia.

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 There was a man called Brand.

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 And another one whose name I don't remember.

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 They were gendarmes with high ranks.

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 Colonels or something like that.

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 And there was one Jew who was a mediator between the leadership of resettlement,

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 between the leadership of the WFLF,

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 and the Jewish workers.

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 He was very praised by everyone.

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 He tried his best, and he had opportunities in the meantime.

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 His name was Czapliński.

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 It's worth remembering.

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 I don't know what happened to him.

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 In any case, he chose the same path as my husband.

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 Because among the people who were in that car,

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 there were a couple of decent people.

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 He told the decent people to run away,

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 because he took their lives.

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 As a result, the ghetto was sentenced to death.

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 One of them, they were discussing what to do.

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 One of them said that they had to kill us.

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 And the other one said that it was a pity to fight, because they would die anyway.

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 And they let us into the ghetto.

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 To the so-called Wfelschtel, which I didn't talk about, but I'd like to say a few words about it.

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 And there were Jews there, who told us to go home.

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 After the next German check,

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 we went to our apartment in Zamenhof.

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 But that apartment looked terrible.

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 It was dirty and there was a lot of...

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 It looked like an apartment after a visit to Wörtherfassung.

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 We spent one night there and decided to run away.

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 The second time, that is, four days after the first escape.

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 I'd like to go back to how you became Mrs. Makower.

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 It was a very long and interesting story,

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 because we had to have a marriage certificate.

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 And this marriage certificate was obtained by a rabbi who was from Łódź,

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 who knew my uncle, who came with me, and my husband, I think I've heard of him.

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 And he gave us the marriage certificate, which we needed.

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 But he made one mistake.

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 The marriage certificate went with us to the commune,

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 and there was a little rabbi who said that the marriage certificate was unimportant.

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 Why was it unimportant?

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 Because it was issued on the date of the temple's demolition.

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 And then you couldn't give a marriage certificate.

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 So my husband shook the table with his fist and said, "Don't you see what's going on around you?

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 You're using such formalities."

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 And there was a second, wiser rabbi, and he said, "Give them the marriage certificate."

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 And that was our marriage.

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 But then, in Lublin, we got an official divorce and an official marriage certificate.

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 So you got your second marriage certificate without a divorce.

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 Yes, of course, but we got a divorce in Lublin, but we got our marriage certificate in Wrocław.

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 I would like to ask you what happened to your mother in the meantime?

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 My mother was the most important.

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 I had a hospital leave for Leszno.

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 It was in 1941, before I was discharged.

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 I went to my father's house to tell him that my mother wasn't feeling well, so I ran to her.

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 She was in a lot of pain. She was fainting.

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 She was taking corticosteroids on her own.

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 My boss came, not Dr. Wertkań, the oldest boss, but Dr. Rothaup.

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 He was a bit younger than him, but he was a very experienced surgeon.

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 And he said that it was probably a tuberculosis outbreak.

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 They took my mother to the hospital in Leszno.

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 And when they took her up the stairs, she said to me,

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 "Listen, my father wouldn't let me go, but you let me go to the hospital."

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 And you can imagine my situation.

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 My mother was in the hospital, on my operating table,

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 where I operated on the patient's back.

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 They operated on her, and it was a success.

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 They took the egg bag, the size of a child's head.

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 They took the bag away, but my mother didn't fall asleep until she died.

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 So she didn't wake up?

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 She didn't wake up until she died, because the gases were accumulating in her body.

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 The vessels were squeezing.

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 They didn't know about it at the time.

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 And I learned about it from a beautiful book by a French surgeon, Montdor.

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 I read this book on my maternity leave, after so many months.

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 I learned that you have to put a patient on your stomach

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 and press the plexus solaris, i.e. the solar plexus, the nervous plexus.

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 But I didn't know about it at the time.

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 My mother died in my arms,

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 and the funeral was already held in a cemetery outside the ghetto.

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 Among those who took her away was her oldest sister,

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 who told me, "Emma, don't be so sad, because we'll all die."

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 At least she died in bed.

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 She took her sister, her mother, and her daughter-in-law with her.

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 I didn't say it, because it's impossible to say everything.

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 And there was my husband, who was after the abdominal typhus.

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 He barely walked. On the one hand, I had a husband,

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 and on the other hand, my mother-in-law, Mietka Fromm.

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 - Your first mother-in-law. - Yes.

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 And that was my life until the end of summer.

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 I had him and I had the Fromm families,

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 whom I loved like my own parents.

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 They probably forgot that I was Mietka's wife.

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 Yes, and I didn't say much about it, because there was no way.

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 What else did I want to say?

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 I wanted to come back and ask you, you were talking about Korczak.

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 Did you meet Korczak in the ghetto?

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 Yes, I had Korczak as a patient.

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 In the hospital in Leszno, there was a surgeon, a great surgeon.

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 He met a surgeon with a knife.

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 I didn't operate on him, someone else did.

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 I think it was Werthem or Rothaupt, one of the oldest doctors.

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 He suffered a lot, he was in a lot of pain, he didn't sleep at night.

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 I was on duty with him, he told me about his home,

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 a child on Krochmar Street.

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 He was very poor, he suffered a lot of pain.

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 Then he was discharged and he continued to be treated.

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 I don't remember, maybe it was Rozanza.

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 I mean, I didn't have any contact with him then.

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 In any case, he could have saved himself,

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 because he was saved from the Aryan side.

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 He didn't want that and he went to Łomszczak with his children.

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 This is the truth I know from the ghetto.

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 So this is the truth about Korczak, he was a wonderful man.

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 Did your husband work only as a doctor in the ghetto?

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 Or did he also work as a teacher?

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 I haven't told you anything about that.

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 But it's very important.

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 In 1940, more or less in the mid-1940s,

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 a teacher from the Medical Academy in Warsaw

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 organized a course of medical education.

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 These were legal courses, and their name was "Courses to Fight the Epidemic".

239
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:18,000
 The Germans agreed to that, because they were very afraid of that.

240
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:26,000
 So these courses were attended by about 100 listeners.

241
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:30,000
 They were ordinary listeners.

242
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:35,000
 They were people full of enthusiasm.

243
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,000
 They were mostly medical students,

244
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:45,000
 who had three hours of normal life, taken from the ghetto.

245
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:50,000
 The building where the courses were held was in Leszno, on the corner of Żelazna Street.

246
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,000
 And you had to have a pass to get to that building,

247
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:58,000
 because it was a few steps away from the ghetto.

248
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,000
 I often went with my husband to these courses.

249
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,000
 He taught physiology,

250
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:11,000
 and he prepared very well for each course.

251
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,000
 There were many lecturers.

252
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:20,000
 Among them was Prof. Hitschlerd with his assistant Anzelówna.

253
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:26,000
 There was also Dr. Zwerwan, who taught histopathology.

254
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:34,000
 There was Dr. Stein, who was the chief physician of the Jewish hospital.

255
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:41,000
 I think there was also Dr. Bieleńczyk.

256
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:45,000
 I don't remember all the names.

257
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:54,000
 Only a few people survived among those students, who were very diligent.

258
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,000
 And it was Zwerwan who saved them.

259
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:05,000
 He gave a certificate to those students, who survived.

260
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:11,000
 It was the first two years of medical school, and even more.

261
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:16,000
 These young people were admitted to the Warsaw University,

262
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:22,000
 at the beginning, by the Polish Senate, of course.

263
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,000
 On the basis of Zweibaum's certificates.

264
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,000
 There is a lot to say about Zweibaum.

265
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,000
 How long did this university last?

266
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,000
 One and a half year.

267
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:38,000
 One and a half year, and there were over 100 students.

268
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:42,000
 When the deportation started, it all ended.

269
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:51,000
 It started in the middle of 1940,

270
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,000
 and lasted until 1941.

271
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:59,000
 There were about two years of medical school.

272
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:05,000
 Unfortunately, very few people survived.

273
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,000
 It's hard to say how many.

274
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,000
 They were all outside of Poland, outside of Sweden.

275
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,000
 I didn't know all of them.

276
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,000
 I only came to listen to my husband,

277
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,000
 because he spoke very beautifully.

278
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:29,000
 He was a member of a group of lecturers of this university.

279
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,000
 He was teaching physiology.

280
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:39,000
 I would like to ask, did you or your husband have any contact with the Aryan side?

281
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,000
 Yes, and it's good that you mentioned it.

282
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:47,000
 The only contact we had was through the so-called "Leszno 1" court.

283
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:54,000
 These courts were closed during the deportation.

284
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:59,000
 Before that, these courts functioned not as courts,

285
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:04,000
 but as some kind of tax windows.

286
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:10,000
 In any case, it was relatively easy to get to the Aryan side.

287
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,000
 You just had to catch people, of course.

288
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:19,000
 You could call the Aryan side from there.

289
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,000
 My husband got in touch with Professor Paluch in this way.

290
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,000
 Professor Paluch saved us.

291
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,000
 We moved in with him in Dzieciątka Jezus.

292
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:34,000
 Could you tell us who Professor Paluch was?

293
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,000
 What was his position?

294
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,000
 Professor Paluch was a lecturer in Łódź.

295
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:43,000
 He was from a mixed marriage.

296
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,000
 His father was a gardener, a Pole.

297
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,000
 His mother was a Jew.

298
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,000
 His wife was a Polish nurse.

299
00:24:52,000 --> 00:25:01,000
 Both of them were students in Kraków.

300
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:06,000
 Hence their friendship with my husband, who studied medicine in Kraków.

301
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:13,000
 They lived in Dzieciątka Jezus Hospital, where they worked.

302
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:18,000
 They told their 12-year-old daughter, Dyzi,

303
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,000
 who was a doctor for a long time,

304
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:25,000
 that our friends would come.

305
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,000
 We had to come once, but we didn't.

306
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,000
 We came the next time.

307
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:37,000
 She was at home, while they were playing bridge.

308
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,000
 She called our parents.

309
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,000
 The packages arrived.

310
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,000
 Our parents came.

311
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,000
 Of course, they were very happy.

312
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,000
 They put us in a bed.

313
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,000
 They slept on the floor.

314
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,000
 It was after your second escape.

315
00:25:54,000 --> 00:26:01,000
 They gave us four eggs,

316
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,000
 something new, which wasn't available in the ghetto.

317
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:09,000
 They made contact with the state of Użykow.

318
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:14,000
 After four days at Paluchów,

319
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,000
 Janusz Użykowski came to us.

320
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,000
 He was 17 years old.

321
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,000
 He took us to Paluchów.

322
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:30,000
 He comforted us on the way to the train station,

323
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,000
 which was heavily guarded by the gendarmes.

324
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:41,000
 The journey to the wagons could have ended very badly,

325
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,000
 because we didn't have any documents.

326
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,000
 It ended well.

327
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,000
 There was a lot of people in the wagons.

328
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:54,000
 Most of them were smugglers.

329
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,000
 Did he take you to the wagons?

330
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,000
 Yes, he came with us.

331
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,000
 It was a regular train.

332
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,000
 We got off at night.

333
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,000
 It was snowing.

334
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:15,000
 After 20 minutes, we got to the house of our future guardians.

335
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,000
 What year was it?

336
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,000
 It was 1943.

337
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:25,000
 It was 1944.

338
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:35,000
 You left the ghetto in 1943.

339
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,000
 Yes, we fled in 1943.

340
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:48,000
 The dates confused me the most.

341
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:54,000
 I think we'll stop here and we'll have to change the tape.

342
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,000
 I'll tell you everything in a moment.

343
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,000
 Thank you for your support on Patronite.

344
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:44,000
 Thank you for your support on Patronite.