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 [Polish]

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 Tape number 4. An interview with Mrs. Noemi Makower.

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 Joanna Wróblewska is the host.

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 Lejcin became the head of the Jewish police.

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 He was an indispensable man.

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 He loved his wife very much, who was pregnant.

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 He would do anything for her.

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 On the first day, the Germans told him to evacuate 10,000 people.

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 The first day and the second were very easy.

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 He took all the people from the points where they were located.

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 But then, after those two days, when he was supposed to evacuate 10,000 people again,

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 it was more difficult.

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 And he managed to do it in the amount of 6,000 people.

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 At the same time, he also hired community workers,

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 who did it very skillfully, fearing for their own skin.

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 But the Germans immediately realized that this was not a good method.

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 As I said, it was a team that evacuated the Germans,

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 who carried out the evacuation in Lviv.

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 They already had experience of how to behave.

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 During the entire evacuation period, not a single drop of German blood was used.

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 12 or 13 gendarmes carried out the evacuation.

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 As I said, Befelsztel was located on Żelaznie 103.

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 And that's where all the orders came from.

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 Now, what did it look like from the point of view of the Jewish police?

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 At the beginning, Lekin was the executioner of the police in the ghetto.

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 Szeryński was the general head of the evacuation.

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 And at Umschlag, there was someone else.

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 Szmerling was the head of Umschlag.

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 And he decided who was to go to the wagons,

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 and who could take a break for a while.

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 The cooperation of these three people gave very good results.

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 So good that there were a lot of people there.

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 And then the number of those people decreased a lot and reached 15,000 at the end of the evacuation.

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 There were different stages of the evacuation, and this is very important.

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 Namely, at the beginning, in November 1942,

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 there was a so-called "small action" and 1,000 people were evacuated.

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 Then, at night, which was very important,

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 from September 5 to September 6, 1942, there was a so-called "Kocio".

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 What was this "Kocio"?

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 At that time, we slept on the ground floor, because the place where we lived was constantly changing.

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 We put our beds in the middle of the room, not knowing that splashes were coming from the ceiling.

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 So it was terrible.

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 At night, we heard the voice of Czapnicki, the head of the Jewish uniformed militia,

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 that there was a new order.

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 Namely, all Jews had to move to a very small area

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 bordered by Zamenhof Street, Stawki Street, Parysowska Square.

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 And the time of travel was one day.

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 People were to have food for two days.

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 And in the course of that day, at the beginning, people with luggage,

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 because they thought it would last longer, were pulled to the boiler room.

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 We were assigned to the boiler room on Miła Street.

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 Miła Street wasn't nice at all, but there were a lot of various thieves' holes, various lockers,

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 because it was the area of thieves.

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 There were eight of us, women, who were assigned to the boiler room.

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 We got to the apartment. All the apartments looked like that.

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 It was full of papers, various garbage, dung, leeches on the floor, dirt, shit.

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 And the gentlemen, our husbands, pretended, I mean, they wanted to do something.

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 It was the day of the armament suspension. They were running around the mine.

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 They were doing things for their loved ones.

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 And there were eight of us, women, and we started cleaning the whole mess.

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 We worked for a very long time, but the boards and what we found there

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 were like messages for that one night. And what was cooked there.

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 And at that time, after that time, there were executions without any covers.

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 I mean, first, people were placed in a row,

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 and those who had some important passports, from the point of view of the Germans,

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 or from the bigger shops, where they made uniforms for the Germans, and so on.

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 Excuse me, did you also have a passport?

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 I only had a passport as my husband's wife.

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 And he was a doctor?

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 He was a coordinator of the Internal Affairs Department.

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 Now I have to go back and ask, when did you become Mr. Makarew's wife?

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 I'll tell you later, because it's very interesting. But I wanted to say something about it.

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 One moment.

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 You were talking about how you were cleaning as women.

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 Yes, yes, I remember, I remember.

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 There was a review of people who had passports.

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 On that street, right there.

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 During the execution.

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 On that street, there was a review.

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 And not only was a passport needed, but it had to be given to the Germans.

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 And it had to be old enough, and it had to have no small children.

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 Because the others were shot.

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 The whole street and the whole area was one sea of blood.

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 Excuse me, who was shooting?

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 Germans.

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 Only Germans?

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 Only Germans. The police had no role at all.

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 But only Germans were shooting.

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 And the commune, which had 10,000 workers,

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 received so-called "red cards" for thousands of workers.

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 Thanks to the fact that my husband had a very serious medical position there,

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 he got a "red card" for himself and for me.

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 We were supposed to go through the review of the gendarmes,

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 to see if there were sometimes more people,

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 and to see if there were people who had some inappropriate cards.

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 A woman with a large backpack was standing in front of me.

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 I asked her, "What do you have in that backpack?"

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 She said, "A child."

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 Because the children didn't get a life card, because the commune didn't have one.

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 So she decided that the parents would somehow save the children.

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 Her husband was somewhere in the back, because he was nervous,

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 and he would have betrayed her.

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 And the child got morphine and went to sleep.

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 So that's just one picture.

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 The Germans were very meticulous in reviewing all those cards.

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 The red cards were for the commune.

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 As I said, for 3,000, 1,000 for the rest of our lives.

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 And then we moved, looking for...

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 The transportation was a disaster.

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 The ghetto was constantly being reduced.

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 We got a flat on Zamenhof Street, opposite the commune.

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 The commune also had a new room.

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 Before that, it was somewhere else.

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 And there was one room there, a dormitory, a kitchen.

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 The room was divided into two parts, very precisely.

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 And there lived a lawyer, Lubliner, with his wife.

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 What was his name, I'm sorry?

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 Lubliner, with his wife.

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 In one room, and we lived in the other room.

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 The division was...

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 I'm sorry, were you living with your husband and mother at the time?

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 No, no, only with my husband.

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 You couldn't let anyone in there other than your closest family.

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 I mean, the child and his wife.

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 And where was your mother at the time?

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 My mother was hidden by my husband in the hospital.

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 She didn't feel well there, because she was a favored person.

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 She didn't feel well there.

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 But she looked pretty, because she changed her hair and dyed it.

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 She was in the hospital for a while.

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 Then, in turn, my husband's sister, Lonia, a German teacher, and her husband

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 got a nice apartment and my mother moved in with them.

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 She couldn't live in our apartment, because Szeryński, the police chief,

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 said that anyone other than the closest family, i.e. the wife and child, should be shot.

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 So it was...

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 And the police blocks were relatively safe at first,

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 because the police was needed.

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 And now...

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 I'm going back to the cat.

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 It was the Red Sea.

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 Later.

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 The ones who didn't show up for verification were the best.

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 They were hiding in various hiding places,

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 because, as I said, there were various thieves there.

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 There were two such cases.

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 One doctor was hiding in such a hiding place.

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 The gendarmes pushed the door open.

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 "Get out!"

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 A number of people came out.

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 He stayed there and saved himself.

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 For a while, of course.

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 The second case of a miraculous survival.

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 A family, a husband and a wife, were hiding in Tapczany.

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 In the room where...

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 It's still in Kotle.

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 There was an evacuation.

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 They didn't open Tapczany.

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 And they survived the siege happily.

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 So there were a lot of cases.

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 And besides, maybe the best were those who didn't show up at all.

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 Just like the ones I'm talking about.

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 And besides, those who had some hiding places.

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 There were a lot of accidents underground.

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 I remember one lawyer told us

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 that when they didn't hear each other, when the Germans were coming,

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 he could barely suffocate his child, who was screaming.

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 There were twenty-odd adults and children there.

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 But of course, those were occasional accidents.

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 You can't decide to suffocate your own child.

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 The situation was tragic.

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 Finally, a big evacuation operation,

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 including the German gendarmes.

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 Excuse me, what did you know about the fate of those who were evacuated?

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 I'll tell you about it in a moment.

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 If you want, I can tell you now.

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 Of course, people began to appear.

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 The escapees from Treblinka.

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 I know about ten such people.

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 Behind our apartment, where we lived,

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 behind the wall, there was one

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 who talked and sang at night.

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 He was just crazy.

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 I know about ten such people, but there were more.

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 In any case, we were certain

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 that those trains were going to death, not to work.

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 We were sure of that.

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 One day, late at night, we were reading books by the candle.

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 I was reading Maria Stuart, and my husband was reading a different book.

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 We fell asleep late, around 2 a.m.

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 and we were awakened by a loud knocking at the door.

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 In one word, action.

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 It was in the district where the police lived.

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 We had a cellar prepared for Lubliners and me.

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 Lubliner didn't, because he was also in the police.

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 We went downstairs to the cellar.

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 There were several dozen people there.

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 There was a small window, 4 by 3 centimeters, which could be opened.

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 If it was possible.

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 The cellar was connected to an exit outside.

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 It wasn't a big exit, but the steam was coming from the vents.

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 The action lasted for four days.

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 I was in the cellar for three days.

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 The fourth day, somewhere else.

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 My husband saw the steam.

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 We heard it in the cellar.

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 There were crowds of people, caught by the Germans.

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 The gendarmes were right above us.

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 They didn't review this house.

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 After these three days, my husband noticed the steam.

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 In a few cases, it caused the cellar to be exposed.

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 With the help of his friends, he took me to Faders's shop.

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 There, on the fourth floor, I experienced a German visit.

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 In fact, it wasn't on the fourth floor, but on the first and second floor.

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 There were these workshops of the gendarmes.

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 Thanks to the arrival of Faders, who didn't trust the Germans with his compatriots,

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 the revisions only concerned workshops.

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 There were a lot of people there.

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 We experienced the revisions on the fourth floor.

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 How many people were there?

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 A young lady was sitting next to me, and I was talking to her.

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 They were all friends and relatives of the shop's workers.

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 And the fireman, who was the district official, worked in my hospital.

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 So he knew me, and miraculously, he agreed to let me stay there.

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 After four days, my husband came.

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 He came every day, but on the fourth day he said that the action was over,

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 and that I could go back to my apartment.

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 I came back to my apartment, and then the Lubliners moved to a shop,

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 and we decided to run away from the ghetto.

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 We knew that it was the end.

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 When was it?

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 I won't tell you exactly.

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 We decided to run away in January.

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 We ran away on the 23rd of January,

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 and it was the first unsuccessful escape.

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 There was a clever boy, not a smart one,

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 who decided to give us a car and take us to Lublin.

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 There were a lot of our things.

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 He said that the Germans had taken them away.

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 But he left a bag and some other things.

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 On the night of the 23rd,

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 it was a very cold night.

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 We didn't have any means of transport.

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 The things were heavy.

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 It was far away.

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 It was a shed.

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 It was near a shed.

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 We had to go to the Aryan side,

248
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 and we were supposed to be there at 10 p.m.

249
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:03,000
 We didn't have any means of transport.

250
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:08,000
 The Germans helped us to get to Lublin.

251
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:17,000
 They helped us to get to Pinkert's car.

252
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,000
 It was a well-known car there.

253
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,000
 He was transporting corpses.

254
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,000
 I was sitting next to the carriage.

255
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:31,000
 My husband was sitting inside the carriage.

256
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:39,000
 They took us to a long street,

257
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:51,000
 where we were supposed to cross the ghetto border.

258
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,000
 Were they Germans who had been bought?

259
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,000
 For sure.

260
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,000
 11 or 12 people.

261
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,000
 It was dark.

262
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,000
 I couldn't even see them well.

263
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,000
 A late truck arrived.

264
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:16,000
 It had a big trailer on the outside.

265
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,000
 The driver was Polish.

266
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,000
 We were supposed to go as an empty car.

267
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:31,000
 If someone's head was sticking out, he would hit it.

268
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,000
 The truck left.

269
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,000
 We thought we were in the open air.

270
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,000
 We thought it was different.

271
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,000
 At some point, we heard a terrible clang.

272
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,000
 It was terrible.

273
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,000
 Three shots.

274
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,000
 Probably not only the tire broke.

275
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,000
 There were too many things.

276
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:56,000
 The driver ran away.

277
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,000
 Can I say it?

278
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,000
 The driver ran away,

279
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,000
 and our car, covered with a hood,

280
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:09,000
 was surrounded by 12 gendarmes.

281
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,000
 At first we thought they were Polish insurgents.

282
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:22,000
 But we found out later that they were Jews.

283
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:28,000
 They started beating everyone one by one.

284
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:33,000
 The women, judging by me, were not so strong.

285
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,000
 My husband was very beaten up.

286
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:45,000
 He and another man, tall men, were beaten the most.

287
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:50,000
 They took my bag,

288
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:56,000
 which contained all my documents, photographs and personal belongings.

289
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:01,000
 They took all our luggage, of course.

290
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:09,000
 Then they took us to a place.

291
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,000
 We didn't know where.

292
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,000
 To a small hiding place.

293
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:19,000
 A small room that was closed.

294
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:24,000
 They did a personal inspection.

295
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:30,000
 They took everything that was on the roof.

296
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,000
 In the dark.

297
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,000
 And they told the men to bring their luggage.

298
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:42,000
 My husband, who was one of the tallest men,

299
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,000
 and some other men were carrying huge packages.

300
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,000
 Not only ours, but some more.

301
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,000
 They beat him terribly.

302
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,000
 They beat him in the eyes, in the face.

303
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,000
 I didn't see him, because it was dark.

304
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,000
 When he came back, I could feel him.

305
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,000
 He said, "Don't worry, Emma, I'm fine.

306
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,000
 I feel warm in my head.

307
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,000
 Nothing happened to me.

308
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,000
 Don't worry about me."

309
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:19,000
 After a while, they started to lead us through various streets,

310
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,000
 as well as through Umschlag.

311
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:30,000
 We were walking the road that 300,000 Jews walked on to Umschlag.

312
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,000
 I mean to Treblinka, I can say.

313
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:38,000
 We were walking in the first pair.

314
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,000
 I have to go back for a moment.

315
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:46,000
 And a gendarme who was walking next to us

316
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,000
 was talking to my husband in German.

317
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,000
 My husband spoke German very well.

318
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:56,000
 He said that he didn't know anything about the actions in the ghetto.

319
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,000
 It's true that he didn't know.

320
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,000
 He was Czech.

321
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:07,000
 And he was so overwhelmed

322
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,000
 that I didn't listen to what they said.

323
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:16,000
 My husband told me, "Listen, he said that he would save us.

324
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,000
 And if I told you to run away, you should run after me."

325
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:25,000
 But now I want to go back, because it's very important,

326
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,000
 to the Shupo police station

327
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,000
 where they led us through Kryjówka Ciemna.

328
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:39,000
 In this Shupo police station, all the lights were on.

329
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:47,000
 It was an amazing achievement. So many Jews and a car.

330
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,000
 A German officer was sitting behind a desk

331
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,000
 with a portrait of Hitler.

332
00:26:54,000 --> 00:27:00,000
 And he kept asking himself, "Why should I run away?"

333
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,000
 Nobody spoke to him.

334
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,000
 At some point, my husband made up his mind.

335
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,000
 He spoke German very well.

336
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:12,000
 He told him that before we left,

337
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,000
 on the previous day,

338
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,000
 on the 23rd...

339
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:26,000
 on the 23rd of January,

340
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:30,000
 there was a genocide.

341
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,000
 I'd like to pause here, and then we'll start with the next tape.

342
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,000
 Good.

343
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,000
 The End

344
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:44,000
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