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 Tape number 3. Interview with Mrs. Onoemi-Makower.

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 Broadcast by Joanna Wróblewska.

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 I would now like to return to how you met your second husband.

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 You have just told us what your mother thought about it,

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 that you still, being a married woman, had new relationships with a new man.

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 How did his parents look at it?

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 He did not have parents.

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 My father died at a very young age.

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 He was not 40 years old.

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 On the other hand, my mother was living with our neighbours, our friends from the Jaszuński state.

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 His mother had been very positive towards me from the beginning,

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 while other women, who visited him as a doctor or with whom he had some contact,

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 would call them "miserable ladies".

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 So, from the beginning I had a very positive attitude towards her.

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 I treated her like my own daughter, to the end.

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 So, until she was taken away.

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 You told us before how you and your mother moved to the ghetto.

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 Did you and your second husband move to the ghetto at the same time?

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 Did you live together?

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 We all had to move there until November 15, 1940.

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 It was the last moment.

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 We moved there at the last minute, and I found a flat close to my previous one,

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 the one I had been living in all my life.

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 It was on 28 Elektoralna Street.

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 It was close to my grandfather's house on Chłodna Street.

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 Maniek Makower, on the other hand, found a flat on Żelazna Street.

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 He moved in there with his mother and the Jaszuński state.

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 So, they were still very close.

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 The reason why they were so close was that Mr. Jaszuński had a very poor eyesight.

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 He could see Mańka and his son, who was in Lwów at that time.

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 They later returned to Warsaw, to the ghetto.

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 So, the answer to the question about his mother's relationship with me

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 would have to be answered in the future.

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 But it would be in a different place.

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 I would have a chance to add it later.

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 As far as I understand, you worked in the same hospital in the ghetto.

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 I mean, the hospital was clean, but the building was different.

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 My hospital was on Leszno 1,

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 in the building of the former alcohol monopoly on the first floor.

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 All the surgical departments were located in that hospital.

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 However, my future husband's hospital was on Leszno 40.

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 He was the head of the internal department, and later of the infectious department.

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 Because the internal department was transformed into the infectious department.

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 Who supervised the hospital in the ghetto?

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 The hospital was supervised by the hospital department of the Jewish community,

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 headed by Dr. Mileńkowski.

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 He was a well-known dermatologist from Warsaw.

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 Did you have any personal contacts with him?

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 I mean, my husband did, because I didn't have many contacts with the Jewish community.

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 My life was filled with work in the hospital,

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 and patients outside the hospital, as a supplement to my poor budget.

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 After all, the work in the community hospital didn't give me any opportunities to live.

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 We had to supplement it with the work of private visitors and patrons,

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 which I still had.

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 How much did you get paid when you worked?

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 I don't remember.

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 These are countless amounts of money, so it's hard for me to remember.

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 I know that my husband earned a lot of money,

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 because he had many private visits.

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 He was very successful as a dermatologist in Łódź.

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 His patients were now in high positions in the Jewish police.

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 That's why he got a police cap and was a doctor in the Jewish community,

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 the Jewish police, the SP, the orderly service.

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 In addition, he had private visits.

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 Thanks to this cap, he managed to save many people.

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 He saw many things from up close,

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 but he couldn't save his family.

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 He was exhausted by that moment.

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 He was exhausted.

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 He lost his mind because he didn't go with them to the wagons.

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 I'll tell you a little bit about that later.

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 Do you remember any names of the people he treated?

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 Czapliński was a man of high rank.

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 I don't remember exactly what rank he was in.

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 He had a contact, he was obliged to have a contact

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 between the commune and the Welfelschtel.

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 The Welfelschtel was a German facility on Żelazna Street 103,

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 which was relocating people.

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 And he helped us get released after an unsuccessful escape.

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 I'll tell you about that later.

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 I remember Czapliński's name.

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 If we're talking about other police officers,

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 I'll tell you about the one who was murdered later.

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 The one who took over Cienkaj,

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 the colonel who had been arrested in Warsaw,

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 because Czapliński wanted to sell some fur.

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 It was some foolishness of Czapliński.

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 He was released from that prison

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 and was told to supervise the Jewish militia.

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 That colonel Czapliński.

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 Do you want to say something more about him?

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 We'll come back to him later.

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 I'd like to ask you what were the contacts of the Jewish doctors

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 with the Germans in the ghetto?

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 Did you have any contacts with the Germans at all?

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 We didn't really have any contacts.

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 We only had official contacts,

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 which consisted in the fact that the Germans called Czerniakow

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 as the head of the Jewish community.

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 They called him to inform him of certain orders.

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 For example, the order of eviction.

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 Czerniakow found out about it from the Germans.

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 When the eviction began in 1940,

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 on October 15,

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 he found out about it and committed suicide on October 16.

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 Didn't I make a mistake?

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 The ghetto was being built in Czerniakow,

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 but the eviction took place in 1940.

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 He found out about it in 1940,

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 at the very beginning,

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 because there was a huge German rumor

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 that the unproductive population of the ghetto

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 would move to other areas where they could work.

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 They wanted Czerniakow to sign it.

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 Czerniakow didn't agree to it

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 and the next day he was found dead in his office in Gmina.

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 It didn't end well,

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 although he was a very decent man.

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 Did you know him?

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 No.

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 Maybe I saw him once, but I don't know him.

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 His husband knew him well

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 and he committed suicide

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 because he didn't predict the size of the eviction

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 and he didn't want to take part in it.

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 How did you find out about the eviction?

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 Who brought you the news?

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 We were living in one of our apartments

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 because we were moved from one apartment to another

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 because the ghetto was being reduced.

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 I found out about the eviction

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 just like everyone else,

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 because there were posters all over the ghetto

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 signed by a Jewish police officer.

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 Czerniakow didn't want to sign it

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 and that's why he got lost.

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 So after his suicide,

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 Gmina Żydowska became unmanaged.

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 Because all the people who came after him

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 couldn't be compared to him in any way.

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 The councillors of Gmina Żydowska

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 were all masons, very rich Jews

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 and that's why they had little understanding for the Jewish poverty.

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 There were very poor food supplies

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 that Gmina Żydowska had to give out to the Jews.

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 Black bread, around 150 grams per day,

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 a little sugar, from time to time, very rarely.

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 Vegetables, potatoes, also rarely,

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 but there were supplies from time to time.

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 Life in the ghetto started to get organized.

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 There were rickshaw drivers,

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 that is, people who were working overtime

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 and were transporting people for money.

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 My husband, for example, said,

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 I've already mentioned his name,

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 he said that he didn't want to use their words

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 because he couldn't look at what was going on.

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 However, when he had typhus,

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 he had to use the word "typhus" from time to time.

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 I'm talking about the subdivisions.

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 Then a representative of the German authorities came to the ghetto.

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 His name was Auschwitz, I think.

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 He led to Gmina Żydowska giving out

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 120,000 soups to the poor.

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 These soups were very low in calories.

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 They had a lot of water and poorly cooked porridge.

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 But there was always something.

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 Later, intelligentsia soups were also organized,

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 which were better and more expensive.

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 But in order to get intelligentsia soups,

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 you had to stand in line in Gmina Żydowska

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 and have protection.

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 Because there were 24 counsellors,

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 people thought that protection from one counsellor

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 would give them a positive effect.

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 Meanwhile, the counsellors didn't get along well with each other.

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 They disagreed.

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 So the protection for rabbi X could be a positive protection for rabbi Y, for example.

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 But intelligentsia soups were more expensive, but they were better.

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 Later, in every house that was in the ghetto,

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 food for the poor was organized.

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 At the beginning.

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 Later, every house, maybe not every house,

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 but most of them, tried to feed their poor people.

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 Because it was a burden.

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 - So... - How was it done?

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 Living in a different house.

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 At least I had one such family.

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 At the same time...

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 Almost at the same time...

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 Not completely...

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 It turned out...

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 I have to add that the Warsaw Ghetto

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 was the second largest city in the General Government after Warsaw.

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 This is also very important.

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 - Did any of your family live in the ghetto? - Excuse me?

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 - Did any of your family live in the ghetto? - The whole family.

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 Only not in the municipal ghetto.

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 But mostly in the ghetto where the shops were.

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 In the shop ghetto.

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 Some lived in the shop ghetto, and some in the municipal ghetto.

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 At that time, 48 or 50 people,

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 almost 52 people of my family died.

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 All of them died during different deportations.

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 And no one survived...

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 No one survived my family.

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 All of them died.

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 Yes, my closest cousin, Cytrynikowa, survived.

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 This is so important

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 because it concerns an institution called "Polish Hotel".

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 The Germans carried out a very sophisticated operation,

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 i.e. they spread the rumour

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 that the Jews who paid well

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 would get to the Polish Hotel

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 and from there to the West.

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 So my cousin, who decided very quickly,

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 indeed went to the West

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 together with the first group of Jews

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 who sent fantastic cards from the West

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 with the message that they were at liberty.

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 In some camp, but at liberty.

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 It was a sophisticated German operation.

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 It was about the high costs that had to be paid.

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 But only one or two groups of refugees survived.

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 I'm not sure about that.

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 Where was she deported?

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 To France, mostly.

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 She was released by her husband after the war.

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 So she survived the war.

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 As for her family, which I'll tell you about later

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 because I'll be living there for one day, but always.

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 Yes.

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 So now, the resettlement.

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 The lady asked where I found out about it.

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 Everybody knew that it was a hospital during the resettlement.

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 I worked there and went through the whole Leszno to the hospital.

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 Leszno was the first, where my hospital was.

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 As the resettlement progressed,

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 I saw more and more empty houses,

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 finally completely empty.

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 Leszno was empty.

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 I walked through those empty streets.

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 My shoes were dripping with mud.

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 I couldn't believe it was even possible.

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 Leszno 1 and my hospital were outside the ghetto.

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 I had to have a special permit.

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 It didn't last long.

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 After some time, they moved the hospital from Leszno 1,

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 all the medical units, to Umschlagplatz,

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 but to the hospital, which was organized there.

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 I didn't go there anymore. My husband didn't let me go there.

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 He had his internal unit there,

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 but there was no treatment, no injections, no medicine.

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 The patients were lying there.

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 One thing was certain.

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 People didn't get out of there.

257
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,000
 At first.

258
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,000
 So people were hiding there.

259
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,000
 Medical families.

260
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,000
 Who had relatives, who had close friends.

261
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,000
 They were hiding there.

262
00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:01,000
 Nurses were doing miracles, not only to bury them,

263
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,000
 but also to bring them back to life.

264
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:10,000
 It was the last resort.

265
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:14,000
 Why didn't the Germans evacuate people from there?

266
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,000
 It was already at Umschlagplatz.

267
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,000
 It was a suburb of Umschlagplatz.

268
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,000
 Apparently, that's what they decided.

269
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:27,000
 The team that evacuated people

270
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:39,000
 was called Befelsztel.

271
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,000
 It was the place of Befelsztel's orders.

272
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,000
 In Leszno 103.

273
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,000
 The SS people worked there.

274
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:54,000
 All the orders to evacuate people came from there.

275
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:59,000
 The team of gendarmes who evacuated people

276
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,000
 consisted of a dozen or so gendarmes.

277
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:07,000
 They were the ones who evacuated people in Lublin.

278
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,000
 In Lwów.

279
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,000
 Not in Lublin. In Lwów.

280
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,000
 L.L. was a bit confusing.

281
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:20,000
 They learned there how to do it step by step.

282
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,000
 First of all, for example,

283
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,000
 talking about the evacuation,

284
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:29,000
 first of all, the workers,

285
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,000
 either in the commune or in the so-called shops,

286
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:39,000
 that is, in the workshops,

287
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:44,000
 mainly for the use of the army,

288
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,000
 to make uniforms,

289
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,000
 tailor's workshops,

290
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,000
 or mattresses,

291
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:57,000
 or other elements necessary for the army.

292
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,000
 First, it was the Jews,

293
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,000
 and then, gradually, it was the Germans.

294
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:09,000
 A very famous boss was Tebens.

295
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,000
 It's spelled O-E.

296
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,000
 Tebens.

297
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:17,000
 There were also other Germans.

298
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,000
 There were a lot of those shops.

299
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,000
 And those shops, in the first row,

300
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,000
 the workers of those shops,

301
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:34,000
 they received cards that authorized their release from Mszlachów.

302
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:39,000
 So a lot of people reported to those shops

303
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,000
 and it came to the point that Maniek, for example,

304
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,000
 could not find a good shop for his family.

305
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,000
 And he had such a family,

306
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:54,000
 he had, as he said, his "five",

307
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,000
 a mother,

308
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,000
 a brother with his wife,

309
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,000
 and a sister with her husband.

310
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,000
 Five people.

311
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,000
 And until the end,

312
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,000
 until the moment when there was the final stage,

313
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,000
 the so-called boiler,

314
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,000
 until that moment he could not

315
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,000
 fit his family into a good shop.

316
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,000
 He was looking for one, he was trying, he had friends,

317
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,000
 and yet it didn't really fit him.

318
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,000
 But only temporarily, as it turned out.

319
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,000
 So the Germans, at the beginning,

320
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,000
 were resettling in such a way that

321
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,000
 there were already walls in the ghetto.

322
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,000
 The walls were surrounded from the moment

323
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,000
 when the resettlement began.

324
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,000
 The walls were surrounded by the Latvians,

325
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,000
 who went to serve the Germans.

326
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,000
 Germans and Ukrainians.

327
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:52,000
 And it was a condensed crowd around the ghetto.

328
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,000
 It was very difficult to escape at that time.

329
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,000
 Through these walls,

330
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:03,000
 only small children managed to pass.

331
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,000
 Those who were making these digs,

332
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,000
 about which I said before,

333
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,000
 that they were eating the ghetto and eating their parents.

334
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,000
 Of course, a lot went wrong.

335
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:23,000
 However, these resettlements,

336
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,000
 by houses, as it was at the beginning,

337
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,000
 that the Jewish police,

338
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,000
 which had a bad reputation,

339
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,000
 and there were no Germans.

340
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,000
 Ukrainians and Latvians surrounded such a house

341
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:47,000
 and told people to come down to the yard

342
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,000
 and check what they had in their pockets.

343
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:55,000
 Possibly, they had a permit,

344
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,000
 a stamp, or whatever.

345
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,000
 But then it was getting more and more difficult for people.

346
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,000
 Because more and more people were resettled.

347
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,000
 They wanted to have 10,000 every day.

348
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,000
 At the beginning, it was simple.

349
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,000
 There were so-called refugee points.

350
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,000
 People from the province started to come here,

351
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,000
 because the Germans forced them to come to Warsaw.

352
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:25,000
 And these people took care of empty cinemas,

353
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,000
 empty rooms,

354
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,000
 and other facilities, for example.

355
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:40,000
 They put some wooden dolls there.

356
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,000
 And these people lived there.

357
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:48,000
 The epidemic of pneumonia began to spread.

358
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,000
 More and more.

359
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,000
 There was abdominal typhus, rarely,

360
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,000
 because, as I will say in a moment, there were protective vaccines.

361
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,000
 But there was typhus pneumonia.

362
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,000
 People were dying like flies.

363
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,000
 And besides that, children.

364
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,000
 They didn't want to leave.

365
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,000
 Because the adults didn't even want to resign.

366
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:12,000
 They didn't even want to leave those barracks.

367
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,000
 But the children wanted to live.

368
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:19,000
 And there was a song, the most popular at that time.

369
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:23,000
 It was a bit like "Żydłaczenie".

370
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,000
 "Bones, I don't want to give up the bones."

371
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,000
 Because those were the bones.

372
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,000
 The children were so disappointed.

373
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,000
 It was their song.

374
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,000
 Later, those bones were not paid much.

375
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,000
 But these people didn't care about that.

376
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,000
 They sold a part of the bones,

377
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,000
 for which they bought the rest of the food.

378
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:53,000
 So there was a man

379
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:58,000
 who was called...

380
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:06,000
 I'll tell you later.

381
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:22,000
 Maybe I'll tell you about it later.

382
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,000
 We can tell you about it later.

383
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,000
 That's true.

384
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,000
 Because he was later killed.

385
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,000
 We didn't know.

386
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,000
 There was such an organization.

387
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,000
 Because it was created in the Szupoń ghetto.

388
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,000
 But it wasn't Szeryński.

389
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,000
 No, Szeryński was a different case.

390
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,000
 But it was a man

391
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,000
 who was on the side of the militia,

392
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,000
 the head of the ghetto.

393
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,000
 I'll tell you later what his name was.

394
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,000
 You know how it is.

395
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,000
 Something is always missing.

396
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,000
 That's where we end the tape.

397
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,000
 Lejkin.

398
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,000
 We'll stop here.

399
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,000
 He was very careful.

400
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,000
 I'm sorry, but we'll stop here,

401
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,000
 because the tape is running out.

402
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,000
 The End

403
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:55,000
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