Start of tape three, interview with David Szpigler, May 20, 1997.
You said you and Roman Feig had driven a horse and cart, with supplies to Leslau.
You had met Jan Godowsky, who was a 'trojhändler' in your father's shop, and then you returned to Leslau, what happened next?
When we went to Leslau, we went to Grosshausen.
They said they wouldn't take us because they were also packing; they didn't want refugees.
Then we continued, we arrived at...
-Were you still traveling by horse and cart? -No, by train.
-Also packed in, just like open railway cars. -Many in the same car.
And we got all the way in, outside Hamburg, we passed by.
Then we arrived at the camp called...
-Bergen-Belsen? -No, not Bergen-Belsen.
We arrived at the camp, they didn't want to take us, they sent us to Bergen-Belsen.
They said there was no room.
In Bergen-Belsen, I met an SS man who was a very good friend of Kapp-Ignatz.
I asked where Kapp-Ignatz was, he said he didn't know. My brother and I told him, 'this is my brother'.
-Roman Feig was your brother? -I told him we came from here.
He asked why. I woke up in the morning in the barracks, one on the left side and one on the right side, they were dead.
I cannot lie among dead people.
They said it was the first best job, so we should take it.
It didn't take long, one day he came to the barracks, I think it was barracks 72.
He came and picked us up. We had no luggage, nothing at all.
He came in and said he would send us to Hamburg.
We arrived in Hamburg and were to do bomb disposal.
Bomb disposal consists of disarming unexploded bombs.
-The course itself took ten minutes, shown by an SS man. -Who was to teach you how to do it.
You took a wrench and turned it to the right, not to the left.
You closed it to the left, then to the right, so you wouldn't hit anything.
Then you hit it, it's deep, two-three meters, you have to dig your way. The fuse is down there.
You have to put it on a stand like that. So the bomb doesn't move. One person has to go down and lift it.
The day after, we went down to Hamburg, it was like Norrmalmstorg or Stureplan or something.
Not a soul, everything was evacuated, the whole area was empty.
SS and military staff guarded, and they sent 30-40 people in.
What did we do? Some worked, and the rest went to organize.
-Get things. -Get things, steal, it's not called stealing.
First we ate what we found. Then we brought it to the others.
We found marmalade, lots of marmalade, preserves, jam.
-To this day, I don't eat jam anymore. -You've had enough.
I've had enough. So.
-And you disarmed aerial bombs. Did it go well, or did something happen?
Some went very well, it always went well, thankfully.
I remember one bomb, it was somewhere in Hamburg, not far from the Elbe canal.
The fuse was crooked, it couldn't be loosened. A young SS man came, he was about my age.
He was no more than 20-22 years old. So he went down, took his pistol, and laid it on the floor.
I came up. 'Are you all dead? You're sabotaging, you don't want to work.'
And we went there. And that stupid idiot went to the harbor and took a hammer and hit it.
He went to 'heaven command'. Do you know what 'heaven command' is? Up.
And so it was resolved. He went, not us. So.
One day we were going to work, there was an air raid alarm. We were supposed to go into a bunker.
The Germans built such round bunkers.
An older German came. He said, 'For the Jew pigs, there's no room there.'
So. We walked a few kilometers up into a small forest. A small park, you could say.
All the Germans were there with their German Shepherds. Every SS man had a German Shepherd.
The first time I was scared of dogs, especially SS dogs, I saw them coming towards us.
Tails between their legs and ears back. And trembling just like a leaf.
And at that time, they bombed Hamburg for 24 hours.
-The German Shepherds were scared of the explosion? -Scared of the explosion, yes.
When they bombed Hamburg, now you understand what they did.
They first dropped incendiary bombs, to light up where the city was.
And then they dropped the bombs. What a bang. Just like thunder, but even worse.
It was nothing. We were used to it.
The next day we were to go down to the barracks, back from work. We weren't allowed to go home.
-Did you live in the Bergen-Belsen camp? -No, we lived in a prison in Hamburg.
Outside Hamburg, there was a margarine factory, and a couple of bombs hit it.
And there was a fire, the margarine was burning.
-And this was in early 1945? -1945, it was in February.
How was the treatment otherwise? You did valuable work. How were you treated by the SS guards?
They didn't care. They were scared themselves. And they also slept over there with us.
In the other barracks. We didn't get very good food.
We got warm soup in the morning and the bread was ready. They had nothing themselves.
-So they didn't treat you better because you were valuable? -Not at all.
They also fought among themselves.
The camp is called "Neuengamme". See, that came a bit later.
That computer doesn't work so fast anymore.
It's called Hamburg-Neuengamme, that's the camp.
So it was in the Hamburg prison, formerly the Neuengamme camp.
Then when we were going back from work, they said we had to clean the whole road.
Ambulances should be able to pick up the dead, the injured.
-After these bombings? -After the bombings.
It was lucky we didn't go in. That bunker was just like all the dead.
I've said this, we have a God at home. He told the Germans not to go in.
-And they got a direct hit? -Yes, they did.
We came in. After a few weeks of work, they said they would relieve us.
We'll have another job. We'll work in a factory that makes bombs.
-It's in Sandposten (Bremen-Farge). -Was it in Sandposten?
Sandposten is near Bremen.
It was built inside the barracks, in a tunnel.
We didn't see daylight. For one, two months.
No, it was one month. We didn't see any light at all.
The lamps shone for 24 hours.
-And you manufactured ammunition? -We manufactured ammunition.
We had to load the bombs onto submarines and transport them.
They didn't have the diesel fuel for that.
If they had diesel oil, they would have moved them by cart. -You pushed them by hand? -By hand. That was the important job.
-To ensure the submarines were armed so they could continue. -Yes.
For three days, we got no food.
No food, no electricity. It started to flicker on and off.
On the last day, we saw everyone walking in civilian clothes.
"Oh, I'm so kind. I haven't hit you."
A tank came in.
-A tanker? -No, a tank.
Not a boat, a tank.
-And it drove around the area. -A tank?
-That wasn't the German designation. -A tank.
-The Germans had a cross. -Yes.
Then I told Roman, "I think the Germans specially painted it to see our reaction."
I said we shouldn't do anything.
A few hours later, a lot of tanks arrived.
They rolled around. One in the middle opened its hatch.
"I'll never forget this." A man emerged.
A man came who spoke German, French, English, Russian, Polish, Yiddish.
Not the same person for all languages.
"You are free!" He turns and says, "Do not take weapons from the SS."
Whoever takes weapons is like a prisoner of war and will be shot. They open all the hatches and run down.
It was the first time I saw the Scotsmen in kilts.
-British Army. -British Army.
They were told not to give chocolate, only cigarettes.
-Was that in Sandposten? -Yes.
They brought us from Sandposten to the German barracks.
Not down in the tunnel. Out in the open.
Then the doctors came. I met a Jewish doctor, an Englishman, he spoke Yiddish.
He said, "You must not eat anything." We were malnourished.
We only weighed 38 kilos. We were healthy. We were malnourished.
We left for eight days. We were sent to other places: Bergen-Belsen, Lübeck.
We were there for examination. They looked at me. Nothing wrong.
Nothing with the lungs. It was just being malnourished. Needed food.
You must not eat automatically. You must not eat too fast.
What did we do? They said, "Don't eat," but we ate.
There were small fresh potatoes growing. They weren't as big as peas. A little bigger than peas.
Like Brussels sprouts. That's how big they were.
We washed them a bit, cooked them in a pot.
We cooked them, ate them with skins and all.
Without butter, without anything.
Then we got the coupons. Such a bundle.
Food coupons?
They weren't food coupons. We got a bundle.
A bundle, and we had to hand it in. Then we got food.
It was a 10-kilo package of food.
And that doctor said, "It's wrong to distribute to sick people. You shouldn't give it to them."
And then I learned from him that everyone must get food.
And it was cigarettes, soap, chocolate, butter, canned goods, and everything.
I ate nothing. I couldn't manage to eat.
I don't know, when you're malnourished, you can't eat much.
The stomach couldn't take any more.
I only took a little chocolate and then that was it. I couldn't eat it.
I felt sick.
Were there those who got worse?
They got diarrhea, they got Typhus. They got typhus afterwards, and that was it.
Hygiene wasn't one hundred percent.
We looked great without hair, without anything.
Every single thing, you could say.
And then we went to the hospital.
And were you examined by doctors there then?
The doctor's examination. And the doctor said we shouldn't eat it.
It was just kept in that hospital.
And it was the English military.
And they scanned us.
And Roman Feik, he had something dark. They found it in his lungs.
It wasn't dangerous, they said.
He got special food. He got milk.
And he got special food.
Yes, I got regular food. Not much.
You don't get hungry. You don't get fat on that food.
So you stayed with Roman Feig?
All the way through.
One day, the English military came in.
They needed twenty people.
And they chased Roman Feig, who was walking in the yard.
In the park. At the hospital.
And they thought we would go to other camps.
They thought we would go elsewhere.
Then we went straight to the boat.
To the boat?
To the boat.
We arrived and saw other military.
But you didn't know where the boat was going?
We didn't know where we were going. We saw another flag.
That was when we came to Sweden later.
With Bernadotte.
We arrived in Trelleborg.
And then we lived in Centralskolan.
Roman and I.
But at that stage, you didn't know you would stay in Sweden?
We knew nothing.
We thought we would go. Then we would leave.
You hadn't returned to Poland?
Never. I had nothing to return to in Poland.
You didn't want to return to Poland?
What plans did you and Roman Feig have then?
We planned to go to America or Australia.
I knew I had relatives in America and relatives in Australia.
But now you were in Sweden?
Then we were in Sweden.
Then we arrived. It was a Saturday evening.
We heard an orchestra.
Then we got off, and saw the old men.
The Home Guard.
They had big rifles.
There was a distance.
Swedish people stood and came and said "Hello".
We had to stand here. They stood here.
There was distance between Swedes and us in quarantine.
Always 5-6 meters. We weren't allowed to meet them.
They threw things at us as if we were at Skansen.
Chocolate and apples and everything.
Were our friends there?
Yes, exactly.
We saw there was an orchestra, so we went in.
Roman and I jumped over the fence in the park.
There was a girl over there who spoke German.
They're looking for the Poles, and the Poles are looking for us.
Then it's eleven o'clock.
They close the park.
Then the police come and take us to the police station.
Then they take us back to the camp.
Then they told me, 'You know, you're not allowed out.'
Who said I can't go out?
Am I free or not free?
I'm not a prisoner anymore.
You'll be punished, you'll clean the toilet. Then I said, 'Never!'
You will do it.
I'm a free man. I won't do it.
And Roman, I forbid you to do it.
Then he said, 'They'll send us away!'
Where will they send you?
What are you afraid of?
Who are you afraid of?
You're not German. You can't go to the crematorium anymore.
It's over!
I said you're going to a huge camp.
It will be a huge city.
The biggest city in Sweden.
Two weeks after quarantine, they sent us to Öreryd.
Öreryd is in Småland.
The darkest Småland.
Hästra.
We took a bus.
We arrived and there was a barracks. The Norwegians used to live there.
Norwegian military used to live there.
Then we were there for about July and August.
You came to Sweden in July? - I came to Sweden on July 20th.
It was in August.
Then some girls came to the camp.
They needed a Minyan for Gränna.
It was me and Roman Feig.
And a few others, we went to Gränna.
Without permission. We had no permission.
We didn't know if we had permission.
We went from Öreryd, to Jönköping, and from Jönköping to Gränna.
We arrived at Ribbagården, where there was to be a service.
Who guarded us? The police came and picked us up.
There were 500 Jewish girls.
Ten guys came, thinking we would rape all the girls.
There were a hundred girls.
We said it was the biggest service we had.
They understood nothing.
Then we said we could contact the Rabbi.
It was from Rabbi Löf in Gothenburg.
We asked him if there had to be ten men for a minyan.
He actually called, and they said it really had to be ten men.
It must be so according to Jewish law.
They were guarding us right then.
There were two Home Guard members and one man.
It was Yom Kippur.
We had a siddur.
Then it was Yizkor.
500 girls and ten men stood for Yizkor.
The first Yizkor for everyone.
It's everyone who was missing.
Many fainted and became ill.
They called an ambulance, thinking it was terrible.
It was Gränna. They knew nothing.
Did anyone come from the Gothenburg congregation?
Nothing from the congregation.
What did we get from the congregation? Nothing.
Nothing from Stockholm.
So you celebrated Yom Kippur by yourselves then?
We celebrated Yom Kippur ourselves.
Yizkor remembered all of us Jews, mother, father, and siblings.
At that stage, you didn't really know what had happened?
I understood it.
We saw it right then.
That smell.
The smell of flesh and bones.
You possibly thought it was Reisel, your sister.
She was no more.
When did you get confirmation of that?
Yes, I got confirmation from a girl who no longer lives; she lived in Israel.
She saw that she was no longer alive. She went out on the collection.
She was also sick.
So then you knew that the whole family and the whole extended family were more or less gone?
When we returned to Öreryd...
...the police had written a report.
After I had applied for Swedish citizenship...
...it stated that it was a major transgression.
Skipped quarantine for the service in Gränna.
A black mark written on it in red letters.
You had a criminal record.
Then I said, "Is that it? Is this the punishment one gets for this?"
Then everyone laughed.
When did you and Roman Feig decide to stay in Sweden?
We decided to stay. I immediately looked for a job.
-What kind of job did you look for? -I got sick in Öreryd.
I had appendicitis.
When I arrived at the hospital in Jönköping, it was already inflamed, the doctor said.
"We must go to the operating table immediately."
The doctor at that time didn't speak German.
There were girls working as maids.
-They could translate. -They translated.
A nurse there could speak German.
When they had 10-12 girls working there...
Only one Jew came, whom they hadn't seen the whole time.
We got food and everything.
In those days, you stayed in the hospital for more than a week, lying down.
After an operation, you lie still for two days.
Then you walk.
Then I met my wife there.
-You eventually married in 1946. -Yes, 1946.
-You had children. -We had two children.
Two girls.
-Then you worked in...? -I first worked at Nyhamnns brewery.
Then we got an apartment.
She was with the girls on a Norwegian resistance journey.
Her name was Randi. She was from Mos.
-Mos. Was there a town in Norway? -Mos.
The Germans were looking for her. She came to Sweden and got engaged to a Swede.
She was a manager at a housing cooperative.
I got an apartment, one room and a kitchenette. Fully modern!
-In Jönköping. -In Jönköping.
No down payment. I applied to the congregation.
The down payment then cost 800 kronor.
They didn't want to give me money.
I wasn't working.
They didn't want to give me money.
I made an agreement. That man spoke German.
Then he said, you'll get 20 kronor every month.
I paid him.
I paid him more.
After a few months, I paid off the down payment for the apartment.
-Then you had a wife, an apartment, and a job. -A job.
Then a child came in 1948.
I bought furniture. A sofa. A sofa bed.
The children started growing up.
I told my wife that a small community is no place for Jews. We must look for a big city.
We applied to America.
-You even wanted to emigrate. -America or Australia.
We had to go to Stockholm.
And get X-rays, though we weren't sick.
My wife had a shadow on one lung. So we were rejected.
-Where was your wife from? -From Poland.
-Where in Poland? -Częstochowa.
She was born in Częstochowa and lived in Bendzin.
-Did you know each other before the war? -No.
-Was her lung spot from the camp? -Yes.
Then we decided to stay here.
If we stay here, we have to build it up from scratch, I told her.
We need to make a budget, I said. If I earn, say, 100 kronor a week-
-we must live on 60.
Including rent, we have to put 40 aside.
So we did that. Then we bought a three-room apartment.
I paid and bought new furniture.
I asked how much it cost.
He said it cost so much that I just crossed it out.
I crossed it out and paid him what I wanted.
Cash, not installments. Back then, it was easy to haggle.
That's the end of tape three.