1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,160 Start of tape three, interview with David Szpigler, May 20, 1997. 2 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:21,160 You said you and Roman Feig had driven a horse and cart, with supplies to Leslau. 3 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:29,160 You had met Jan Godowsky, who was a 'trojhändler' in your father's shop, and then you returned to Leslau, what happened next? 4 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:38,160 When we went to Leslau, we went to Grosshausen. 5 00:00:38,160 --> 00:00:47,160 They said they wouldn't take us because they were also packing; they didn't want refugees. 6 00:00:47,160 --> 00:00:50,160 Then we continued, we arrived at... 7 00:00:50,160 --> 00:00:56,160 -Were you still traveling by horse and cart? -No, by train. 8 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:04,160 -Also packed in, just like open railway cars. -Many in the same car. 9 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:14,160 And we got all the way in, outside Hamburg, we passed by. 10 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:21,160 Then we arrived at the camp called... 11 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:29,160 -Bergen-Belsen? -No, not Bergen-Belsen. 12 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:36,160 We arrived at the camp, they didn't want to take us, they sent us to Bergen-Belsen. 13 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,160 They said there was no room. 14 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:47,160 In Bergen-Belsen, I met an SS man who was a very good friend of Kapp-Ignatz. 15 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:56,160 I asked where Kapp-Ignatz was, he said he didn't know. My brother and I told him, 'this is my brother'. 16 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:02,160 -Roman Feig was your brother? -I told him we came from here. 17 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:09,160 He asked why. I woke up in the morning in the barracks, one on the left side and one on the right side, they were dead. 18 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,160 I cannot lie among dead people. 19 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:19,160 They said it was the first best job, so we should take it. 20 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:27,160 It didn't take long, one day he came to the barracks, I think it was barracks 72. 21 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:34,160 He came and picked us up. We had no luggage, nothing at all. 22 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:42,160 He came in and said he would send us to Hamburg. 23 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:48,160 We arrived in Hamburg and were to do bomb disposal. 24 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:55,160 Bomb disposal consists of disarming unexploded bombs. 25 00:02:55,160 --> 00:03:02,160 -The course itself took ten minutes, shown by an SS man. -Who was to teach you how to do it. 26 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:10,160 You took a wrench and turned it to the right, not to the left. 27 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:16,160 You closed it to the left, then to the right, so you wouldn't hit anything. 28 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:32,160 Then you hit it, it's deep, two-three meters, you have to dig your way. The fuse is down there. 29 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:40,160 You have to put it on a stand like that. So the bomb doesn't move. One person has to go down and lift it. 30 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:50,160 The day after, we went down to Hamburg, it was like Norrmalmstorg or Stureplan or something. 31 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:57,160 Not a soul, everything was evacuated, the whole area was empty. 32 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:06,160 SS and military staff guarded, and they sent 30-40 people in. 33 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:13,160 What did we do? Some worked, and the rest went to organize. 34 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,160 -Get things. -Get things, steal, it's not called stealing. 35 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:22,160 First we ate what we found. Then we brought it to the others. 36 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:28,160 We found marmalade, lots of marmalade, preserves, jam. 37 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,160 -To this day, I don't eat jam anymore. -You've had enough. 38 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:37,160 I've had enough. So. 39 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:42,160 -And you disarmed aerial bombs. Did it go well, or did something happen? 40 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:46,160 Some went very well, it always went well, thankfully. 41 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:54,160 I remember one bomb, it was somewhere in Hamburg, not far from the Elbe canal. 42 00:04:54,160 --> 00:05:04,160 The fuse was crooked, it couldn't be loosened. A young SS man came, he was about my age. 43 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:12,160 He was no more than 20-22 years old. So he went down, took his pistol, and laid it on the floor. 44 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:20,160 I came up. 'Are you all dead? You're sabotaging, you don't want to work.' 45 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:28,160 And we went there. And that stupid idiot went to the harbor and took a hammer and hit it. 46 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:34,160 He went to 'heaven command'. Do you know what 'heaven command' is? Up. 47 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:42,160 And so it was resolved. He went, not us. So. 48 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:50,160 One day we were going to work, there was an air raid alarm. We were supposed to go into a bunker. 49 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,160 The Germans built such round bunkers. 50 00:05:54,160 --> 00:06:03,160 An older German came. He said, 'For the Jew pigs, there's no room there.' 51 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:13,160 So. We walked a few kilometers up into a small forest. A small park, you could say. 52 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:21,160 All the Germans were there with their German Shepherds. Every SS man had a German Shepherd. 53 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:29,160 The first time I was scared of dogs, especially SS dogs, I saw them coming towards us. 54 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:37,160 Tails between their legs and ears back. And trembling just like a leaf. 55 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:42,160 And at that time, they bombed Hamburg for 24 hours. 56 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:48,160 -The German Shepherds were scared of the explosion? -Scared of the explosion, yes. 57 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:53,160 When they bombed Hamburg, now you understand what they did. 58 00:06:53,160 --> 00:07:00,160 They first dropped incendiary bombs, to light up where the city was. 59 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:07,160 And then they dropped the bombs. What a bang. Just like thunder, but even worse. 60 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:12,160 It was nothing. We were used to it. 61 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:19,160 The next day we were to go down to the barracks, back from work. We weren't allowed to go home. 62 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:27,160 -Did you live in the Bergen-Belsen camp? -No, we lived in a prison in Hamburg. 63 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:37,160 Outside Hamburg, there was a margarine factory, and a couple of bombs hit it. 64 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:43,160 And there was a fire, the margarine was burning. 65 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:51,160 -And this was in early 1945? -1945, it was in February. 66 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:58,160 How was the treatment otherwise? You did valuable work. How were you treated by the SS guards? 67 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:05,160 They didn't care. They were scared themselves. And they also slept over there with us. 68 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:10,160 In the other barracks. We didn't get very good food. 69 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:15,160 We got warm soup in the morning and the bread was ready. They had nothing themselves. 70 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:19,160 -So they didn't treat you better because you were valuable? -Not at all. 71 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:24,160 They also fought among themselves. 72 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:29,160 The camp is called "Neuengamme". See, that came a bit later. 73 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:33,160 That computer doesn't work so fast anymore. 74 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:38,160 It's called Hamburg-Neuengamme, that's the camp. 75 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:45,160 So it was in the Hamburg prison, formerly the Neuengamme camp. 76 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:54,160 Then when we were going back from work, they said we had to clean the whole road. 77 00:08:54,160 --> 00:09:00,160 Ambulances should be able to pick up the dead, the injured. 78 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:04,160 -After these bombings? -After the bombings. 79 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:12,160 It was lucky we didn't go in. That bunker was just like all the dead. 80 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:21,160 I've said this, we have a God at home. He told the Germans not to go in. 81 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:26,160 -And they got a direct hit? -Yes, they did. 82 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:32,160 We came in. After a few weeks of work, they said they would relieve us. 83 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:38,160 We'll have another job. We'll work in a factory that makes bombs. 84 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:42,160 -It's in Sandposten (Bremen-Farge). -Was it in Sandposten? 85 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:47,160 Sandposten is near Bremen. 86 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:56,160 It was built inside the barracks, in a tunnel. 87 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:01,160 We didn't see daylight. For one, two months. 88 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:05,160 No, it was one month. We didn't see any light at all. 89 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,160 The lamps shone for 24 hours. 90 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:14,160 -And you manufactured ammunition? -We manufactured ammunition. 91 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:22,160 We had to load the bombs onto submarines and transport them. 92 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:29,160 They didn't have the diesel fuel for that. 93 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:38,160 If they had diesel oil, they would have moved them by cart. -You pushed them by hand? -By hand. That was the important job. 94 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:44,160 -To ensure the submarines were armed so they could continue. -Yes. 95 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:49,160 For three days, we got no food. 96 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:54,160 No food, no electricity. It started to flicker on and off. 97 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:59,160 On the last day, we saw everyone walking in civilian clothes. 98 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:05,160 "Oh, I'm so kind. I haven't hit you." 99 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:10,160 A tank came in. 100 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:14,160 -A tanker? -No, a tank. 101 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,160 Not a boat, a tank. 102 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:22,160 -And it drove around the area. -A tank? 103 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:28,160 -That wasn't the German designation. -A tank. 104 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,160 -The Germans had a cross. -Yes. 105 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:39,160 Then I told Roman, "I think the Germans specially painted it to see our reaction." 106 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:43,160 I said we shouldn't do anything. 107 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:49,160 A few hours later, a lot of tanks arrived. 108 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:54,160 They rolled around. One in the middle opened its hatch. 109 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:58,160 "I'll never forget this." A man emerged. 110 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:04,160 A man came who spoke German, French, English, Russian, Polish, Yiddish. 111 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,160 Not the same person for all languages. 112 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:13,160 "You are free!" He turns and says, "Do not take weapons from the SS." 113 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:20,160 Whoever takes weapons is like a prisoner of war and will be shot. They open all the hatches and run down. 114 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:25,160 It was the first time I saw the Scotsmen in kilts. 115 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:30,160 -British Army. -British Army. 116 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,160 They were told not to give chocolate, only cigarettes. 117 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,160 -Was that in Sandposten? -Yes. 118 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:44,160 They brought us from Sandposten to the German barracks. 119 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:50,160 Not down in the tunnel. Out in the open. 120 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:55,160 Then the doctors came. I met a Jewish doctor, an Englishman, he spoke Yiddish. 121 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,160 He said, "You must not eat anything." We were malnourished. 122 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:04,160 We only weighed 38 kilos. We were healthy. We were malnourished. 123 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:15,160 We left for eight days. We were sent to other places: Bergen-Belsen, Lübeck. 124 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:20,160 We were there for examination. They looked at me. Nothing wrong. 125 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:25,160 Nothing with the lungs. It was just being malnourished. Needed food. 126 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:30,160 You must not eat automatically. You must not eat too fast. 127 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:36,160 What did we do? They said, "Don't eat," but we ate. 128 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:43,160 There were small fresh potatoes growing. They weren't as big as peas. A little bigger than peas. 129 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:50,160 Like Brussels sprouts. That's how big they were. 130 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:54,160 We washed them a bit, cooked them in a pot. 131 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,160 We cooked them, ate them with skins and all. 132 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:04,160 Without butter, without anything. 133 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:09,160 Then we got the coupons. Such a bundle. 134 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,160 Food coupons? 135 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,160 They weren't food coupons. We got a bundle. 136 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:18,160 A bundle, and we had to hand it in. Then we got food. 137 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,160 It was a 10-kilo package of food. 138 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:26,160 And that doctor said, "It's wrong to distribute to sick people. You shouldn't give it to them." 139 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:30,160 And then I learned from him that everyone must get food. 140 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:39,160 And it was cigarettes, soap, chocolate, butter, canned goods, and everything. 141 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,160 I ate nothing. I couldn't manage to eat. 142 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:46,160 I don't know, when you're malnourished, you can't eat much. 143 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,160 The stomach couldn't take any more. 144 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:53,160 I only took a little chocolate and then that was it. I couldn't eat it. 145 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,160 I felt sick. 146 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,160 Were there those who got worse? 147 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:02,160 They got diarrhea, they got Typhus. They got typhus afterwards, and that was it. 148 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:06,160 Hygiene wasn't one hundred percent. 149 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,160 We looked great without hair, without anything. 150 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,160 Every single thing, you could say. 151 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:18,160 And then we went to the hospital. 152 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,160 And were you examined by doctors there then? 153 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:24,160 The doctor's examination. And the doctor said we shouldn't eat it. 154 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:29,160 It was just kept in that hospital. 155 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,160 And it was the English military. 156 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,160 And they scanned us. 157 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:39,160 And Roman Feik, he had something dark. They found it in his lungs. 158 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,160 It wasn't dangerous, they said. 159 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:47,160 He got special food. He got milk. 160 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:51,160 And he got special food. 161 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:55,160 Yes, I got regular food. Not much. 162 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:58,160 You don't get hungry. You don't get fat on that food. 163 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,160 So you stayed with Roman Feig? 164 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,160 All the way through. 165 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,160 One day, the English military came in. 166 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,160 They needed twenty people. 167 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,160 And they chased Roman Feig, who was walking in the yard. 168 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,160 In the park. At the hospital. 169 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,160 And they thought we would go to other camps. 170 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,160 They thought we would go elsewhere. 171 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,160 Then we went straight to the boat. 172 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:25,160 To the boat? 173 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:26,160 To the boat. 174 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,160 We arrived and saw other military. 175 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,160 But you didn't know where the boat was going? 176 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,160 We didn't know where we were going. We saw another flag. 177 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,160 That was when we came to Sweden later. 178 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,160 With Bernadotte. 179 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:45,160 We arrived in Trelleborg. 180 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:50,160 And then we lived in Centralskolan. 181 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,160 Roman and I. 182 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:59,160 But at that stage, you didn't know you would stay in Sweden? 183 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,160 We knew nothing. 184 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,160 We thought we would go. Then we would leave. 185 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:09,160 You hadn't returned to Poland? 186 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:13,160 Never. I had nothing to return to in Poland. 187 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:21,160 You didn't want to return to Poland? 188 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:26,160 What plans did you and Roman Feig have then? 189 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,160 We planned to go to America or Australia. 190 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,160 I knew I had relatives in America and relatives in Australia. 191 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,160 But now you were in Sweden? 192 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,160 Then we were in Sweden. 193 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:44,160 Then we arrived. It was a Saturday evening. 194 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,160 We heard an orchestra. 195 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:50,160 Then we got off, and saw the old men. 196 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,160 The Home Guard. 197 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,160 They had big rifles. 198 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,160 There was a distance. 199 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,160 Swedish people stood and came and said "Hello". 200 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,160 We had to stand here. They stood here. 201 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,160 There was distance between Swedes and us in quarantine. 202 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,160 Always 5-6 meters. We weren't allowed to meet them. 203 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,160 They threw things at us as if we were at Skansen. 204 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,160 Chocolate and apples and everything. 205 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,160 Were our friends there? 206 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,160 Yes, exactly. 207 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,160 We saw there was an orchestra, so we went in. 208 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,160 Roman and I jumped over the fence in the park. 209 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:33,160 There was a girl over there who spoke German. 210 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,160 They're looking for the Poles, and the Poles are looking for us. 211 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,160 Then it's eleven o'clock. 212 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,160 They close the park. 213 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,160 Then the police come and take us to the police station. 214 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:47,160 Then they take us back to the camp. 215 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:51,160 Then they told me, 'You know, you're not allowed out.' 216 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,160 Who said I can't go out? 217 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,160 Am I free or not free? 218 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:59,160 I'm not a prisoner anymore. 219 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:04,160 You'll be punished, you'll clean the toilet. Then I said, 'Never!' 220 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,160 You will do it. 221 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,160 I'm a free man. I won't do it. 222 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,160 And Roman, I forbid you to do it. 223 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,160 Then he said, 'They'll send us away!' 224 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:13,160 Where will they send you? 225 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:14,160 What are you afraid of? 226 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:15,160 Who are you afraid of? 227 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,160 You're not German. You can't go to the crematorium anymore. 228 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,160 It's over! 229 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:25,160 I said you're going to a huge camp. 230 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,160 It will be a huge city. 231 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,160 The biggest city in Sweden. 232 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:35,160 Two weeks after quarantine, they sent us to Öreryd. 233 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,160 Öreryd is in Småland. 234 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,160 The darkest Småland. 235 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,160 Hästra. 236 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,160 We took a bus. 237 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:52,160 We arrived and there was a barracks. The Norwegians used to live there. 238 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:57,160 Norwegian military used to live there. 239 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:10,160 Then we were there for about July and August. 240 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,160 You came to Sweden in July? - I came to Sweden on July 20th. 241 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:20,160 It was in August. 242 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,160 Then some girls came to the camp. 243 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:28,160 They needed a Minyan for Gränna. 244 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,160 It was me and Roman Feig. 245 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,160 And a few others, we went to Gränna. 246 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,160 Without permission. We had no permission. 247 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,160 We didn't know if we had permission. 248 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:46,160 We went from Öreryd, to Jönköping, and from Jönköping to Gränna. 249 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:52,160 We arrived at Ribbagården, where there was to be a service. 250 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,160 Who guarded us? The police came and picked us up. 251 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,160 There were 500 Jewish girls. 252 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,160 Ten guys came, thinking we would rape all the girls. 253 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,160 There were a hundred girls. 254 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,160 We said it was the biggest service we had. 255 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,160 They understood nothing. 256 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:16,160 Then we said we could contact the Rabbi. 257 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,160 It was from Rabbi Löf in Gothenburg. 258 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,160 We asked him if there had to be ten men for a minyan. 259 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:28,160 He actually called, and they said it really had to be ten men. 260 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,160 It must be so according to Jewish law. 261 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,160 They were guarding us right then. 262 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:41,160 There were two Home Guard members and one man. 263 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,160 It was Yom Kippur. 264 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,160 We had a siddur. 265 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,160 Then it was Yizkor. 266 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:53,160 500 girls and ten men stood for Yizkor. 267 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,160 The first Yizkor for everyone. 268 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,160 It's everyone who was missing. 269 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,160 Many fainted and became ill. 270 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,160 They called an ambulance, thinking it was terrible. 271 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,160 It was Gränna. They knew nothing. 272 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,160 Did anyone come from the Gothenburg congregation? 273 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,160 Nothing from the congregation. 274 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,160 What did we get from the congregation? Nothing. 275 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,160 Nothing from Stockholm. 276 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,160 So you celebrated Yom Kippur by yourselves then? 277 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,160 We celebrated Yom Kippur ourselves. 278 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:30,160 Yizkor remembered all of us Jews, mother, father, and siblings. 279 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,160 At that stage, you didn't really know what had happened? 280 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,160 I understood it. 281 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,160 We saw it right then. 282 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,160 That smell. 283 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,160 The smell of flesh and bones. 284 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,160 You possibly thought it was Reisel, your sister. 285 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,160 She was no more. 286 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,160 When did you get confirmation of that? 287 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:57,160 Yes, I got confirmation from a girl who no longer lives; she lived in Israel. 288 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,160 She saw that she was no longer alive. She went out on the collection. 289 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,160 She was also sick. 290 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:10,160 So then you knew that the whole family and the whole extended family were more or less gone? 291 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,160 When we returned to Öreryd... 292 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:19,160 ...the police had written a report. 293 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:24,160 After I had applied for Swedish citizenship... 294 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,160 ...it stated that it was a major transgression. 295 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:33,160 Skipped quarantine for the service in Gränna. 296 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,160 A black mark written on it in red letters. 297 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,160 You had a criminal record. 298 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:43,160 Then I said, "Is that it? Is this the punishment one gets for this?" 299 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,160 Then everyone laughed. 300 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:50,160 When did you and Roman Feig decide to stay in Sweden? 301 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:55,160 We decided to stay. I immediately looked for a job. 302 00:23:55,160 --> 00:24:03,160 -What kind of job did you look for? -I got sick in Öreryd. 303 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,160 I had appendicitis. 304 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,160 When I arrived at the hospital in Jönköping, it was already inflamed, the doctor said. 305 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:15,160 "We must go to the operating table immediately." 306 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:19,160 The doctor at that time didn't speak German. 307 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:24,160 There were girls working as maids. 308 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,160 -They could translate. -They translated. 309 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:32,160 A nurse there could speak German. 310 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:38,160 When they had 10-12 girls working there... 311 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:43,160 Only one Jew came, whom they hadn't seen the whole time. 312 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,160 We got food and everything. 313 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:50,160 In those days, you stayed in the hospital for more than a week, lying down. 314 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,160 After an operation, you lie still for two days. 315 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,160 Then you walk. 316 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:02,160 Then I met my wife there. 317 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:08,160 -You eventually married in 1946. -Yes, 1946. 318 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,160 -You had children. -We had two children. 319 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,160 Two girls. 320 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:21,160 -Then you worked in...? -I first worked at Nyhamnns brewery. 321 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:27,160 Then we got an apartment. 322 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:32,160 She was with the girls on a Norwegian resistance journey. 323 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,160 Her name was Randi. She was from Mos. 324 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,160 -Mos. Was there a town in Norway? -Mos. 325 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:45,160 The Germans were looking for her. She came to Sweden and got engaged to a Swede. 326 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,160 She was a manager at a housing cooperative. 327 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,160 I got an apartment, one room and a kitchenette. Fully modern! 328 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,160 -In Jönköping. -In Jönköping. 329 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,160 No down payment. I applied to the congregation. 330 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,160 The down payment then cost 800 kronor. 331 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,160 They didn't want to give me money. 332 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,160 I wasn't working. 333 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,160 They didn't want to give me money. 334 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:17,160 I made an agreement. That man spoke German. 335 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:22,160 Then he said, you'll get 20 kronor every month. 336 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,160 I paid him. 337 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:30,160 I paid him more. 338 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:35,160 After a few months, I paid off the down payment for the apartment. 339 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:42,160 -Then you had a wife, an apartment, and a job. -A job. 340 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:47,160 Then a child came in 1948. 341 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:55,160 I bought furniture. A sofa. A sofa bed. 342 00:26:55,160 --> 00:27:01,160 The children started growing up. 343 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:07,160 I told my wife that a small community is no place for Jews. We must look for a big city. 344 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,160 We applied to America. 345 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:17,160 -You even wanted to emigrate. -America or Australia. 346 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:22,160 We had to go to Stockholm. 347 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:27,160 And get X-rays, though we weren't sick. 348 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:34,160 My wife had a shadow on one lung. So we were rejected. 349 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:41,160 -Where was your wife from? -From Poland. 350 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,160 -Where in Poland? -Częstochowa. 351 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:52,160 She was born in Częstochowa and lived in Bendzin. 352 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,160 -Did you know each other before the war? -No. 353 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:02,160 -Was her lung spot from the camp? -Yes. 354 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:07,160 Then we decided to stay here. 355 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:12,160 If we stay here, we have to build it up from scratch, I told her. 356 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:17,160 We need to make a budget, I said. If I earn, say, 100 kronor a week- 357 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,160 -we must live on 60. 358 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,160 Including rent, we have to put 40 aside. 359 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:29,160 So we did that. Then we bought a three-room apartment. 360 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:36,160 I paid and bought new furniture. 361 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,160 I asked how much it cost. 362 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,160 He said it cost so much that I just crossed it out. 363 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:49,160 I crossed it out and paid him what I wanted. 364 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:54,160 Cash, not installments. Back then, it was easy to haggle. 365 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,160 That's the end of tape three.