Beginning of Tape 2, interview with David Szpigler in Stockholm, May 20, 1997.
David, you just said you had returned to the ghetto.
Can you describe how your parents were doing?
How had living conditions deteriorated?
They had deteriorated tremendously.
When I came here, I told my parents and all my friends.
What you received when you entered the workforce.
I saw there was no future.
It was nothing.
You saw no future in Bendzin?
Nothing at all.
Can you describe, before you go on, what the ghetto looked like?
Was the ghetto fenced in?
The ghetto was fenced in, with Jewish police.
People went to work, to a tailor shop.
Many military clothes came from the front and needed repair.
In the town itself, there were new, manufactured uniforms and civilian clothes.
How big was Bendzin, how many inhabitants could there have been?
60-70,000, purely Jews.
And you said 80% Jews?
Yes, it was 80% Jews.
So conditions had deteriorated drastically and you saw no future?
I saw no future.
But could you leave Bendzin?
What do you mean?
You saw no future in Bendzin.
I couldn't leave Bendzin, I was completely cut off.
I was employed in a tailor shop as a cutter.
I would lay the fabrics on a huge table.
And I saw over there where one could steal. I was also in the camp.
One had to live, one had to sacrifice one's life to survive.
Of course Jews shouldn't steal, but one had to do something.
It wasn't Jewish property, it was German property.
I once came home, I had tied a piece of fabric, a lining, from a suit.
It was about three, four meters. I gave it to father, saying I just found it.
So I found it in town, I said.
I go so many times and find nothing.
I told him what it was.
He didn't want to sell it. I went and sold it.
I got a couple of marks for it from a tailor.
The worst was when they distributed food with the coupons.
The bags were so thick.
Each bag perhaps weighed five hectograms.
Really thick paper. They weighed it precisely like medicine, by the gram.
He was a very good friend of mine.
I told him, it must be wrong.
That committee sitting there, they are in charge of this.
They must be making a lot of money.
They claim fifty kilos of flour. They only sell thirty or thirty-five.
They sell twenty kilos of flour.
The paper they claim to sell weighs more. It weighs like gold.
That store was right where we lived.
He lived right across from us.
I said, that night I'm breaking in.
He said, you're crazy.
You come from the camp where you've worked twenty cubic meters of sand.
Then you're strong in the arms.
Like a real miner.
I kicked it.
I don't know what it's called in Swedish.
It was a lock.
You insert it, and then the lock was in.
A padlock or some kind.
Like a padlock.
I took an iron piece, inserted it, and ripped it open.
Then it was done. Free access.
Then there were barrels of oil.
The oil was like thick oil.
Black.
We brought a container from home.
And flour.
They came in and asked what we had taken.
It says in the Talmud that if you steal from a thief, you won't be punished.
That's true.
They steal from you, and I steal from them.
No punishment.
I fed my uncles and my family.
So you provided them with food? With flour and oil?
Yes, I provided for them.
They haven't said anything.
The supervisor who had trading rights said he hadn't heard anything.
There was a break-in last night.
"I haven't heard anything. I sleep like a log."
"Don't worry and report it to the police, or you're dead," I said.
"No, I won't do anything. I won't report it."
"Then maybe they'll get hungry," he said.
So this was in the Bendzin ghetto?
In 1943, it was something in June or July.
All Jews had to gather at the assembly point, and they took my parents.
I couldn't accept it. They took my parents.
I knew someone who was a Jewish policeman.
He was a very kind guy. His name was Solek Domb.
Then I asked him. The shifts... The guards change.
Then he said, around such and such a time.
There were no Germans, only Jewish police.
I walked up and took my parents by the arms.
A Jewish policeman came. "What are you doing here?"
"I'm taking them." "You can't take them."
I hit him, and he bled.
So you took your parents from the assembly point?
I hid them in a cellar.
Only Poles working in coal mines lived in the ghetto.
Every room had a cellar.
I hid them until they were ready.
That guy said after they left, 'Next time, don't take such a job.'
'I sacrifice my life for my parents. You won't stop me.'
So this was in the summer of 1943?
1943. I told my parents, 'Sooner or later, there will be a liquidation.'
And so it happened.
Were your sisters also in the ghetto?
They were also in the ghetto. Everyone was in the ghetto.
Were they already married before the war?
They were all married.
So what happened? The ghetto was eventually liquidated.
Eventually, in the ghetto, all us siblings were together.
We hid it. We had two rooms.
We put a cabinet, not a sofa, by the door.
It shouldn't be seen. There were small children too.
Small children can't be told to be silent.
They cried. The Germans came in and took them.
For three days, we were there. They took us and sent us to Auschwitz.
Were all of you in the house taken?
All of us. All of us who were in Auschwitz.
And my father said, 'Chaim David, you must take care of your brothers-in-law.'
You've been in a labor camp. You know what to do.
You're strong. You'll manage.
With God's help, you shall protect them.
You must never forget your family.
When did he say that?
When we arrived at Auschwitz. At the ramp.
Did you know what Auschwitz meant?
We had already heard about it.
It wasn't far from there.
Did you know what kind of camp it was?
Yes, we knew it was an extermination camp.
The end.
What happened after your father said that?
There was a selection. They separated women and men.
I said goodbye to my mother, my siblings, and my nieces and nephews.
My father and my brothers-in-law all stood together.
A German came with a stick.
'Right' 'Left' 'Right' 'Left'
We didn't know what it meant.
'Right' meant young people.
'Left' was for the old people, the children.
That's how it was.
Then we arrived at Birkenau.
My two brothers-in-law.
I said to one brother-in-law, to Rosenblom and Abramczyk.
'I won't stay here for 24 hours.'
"Why?" they said.
"It's an idiotic job."
"You have to turn the stapled jacket you received."
"You have to put sand in it and put it on that pile."
"Then you pull it back."
"Idiotic. You do nothing."
"It's meaningless work."
"Psychologically, they want to break you down."
In those barracks, it was for horses, a stable.
It was a long one, bunks for twelve people.
It was strictly by command.
Everyone had to turn to their left side.
Everyone had to turn to their right side.
-It was so cramped. -So cramped.
We got a piece of bread and some tea in the morning.
And a little soup in the evening. That was all the food.
Then I told my brother-in-law, "I'll take the first job they're looking for."
It was no more than ten or twelve days.
I called out before, "We need real tailors."
"Custom work."
"Fine work."
"For those who aren't tailors, there's the crematorium."
"They will be gassed."
Even in Bendzin, there was a large garment industry.
Not custom work.
-So fast, you could say. -Ready-made.
Ready-sewn, not poorly made.
Even they were afraid to go.
I said I wasn't afraid to go. You live once, no more.
You don't live twice. Once is enough.
-You signed up for... -Yes, yes.
I took both of them with me. One didn't want to go.
He was very religious. "I can't sew."
"I can sew!"
We arrived at Auschwitz.
It was exactly like Birkenau.
With beds. Each man got a bed with a locker.
You had nothing to put in the locker.
We got new clothes. Striped clothes.
"Okay, we're going in."
And there was roll call. Roll call wasn't like in Birkenau.
In Birkenau, roll call could last two, three, ten, or four hours.
It was five minutes.
The officer comes, for example, 355.
He counted them as they passed the SS. They passed the SS and were told to work.
And who went to work?
My brother-in-law went in the evening. I was to go on the day shift.
He came in the morning.
Then we got bread, a piece of butter – no, not butter, margarine.
A little jam.
I swallowed it. It's in my stomach and no one can steal it from me.
From the inside, it's done. I ate everything.
My brother-in-law said, "You shouldn't eat it."
"I'll worry about that when it happens," I said.
How far away was the tailor's workshop?
In the same barracks. It was in the same building.
We didn't need to walk far.
On the ground floor, there was a disinfection facility.
Yes, that's right. Those who arrive must do it.
For people or for clothes?
The clothes.
They came up to us, so we could do it.
I asked my brother-in-law, "What do you do?"
He said, "I'm a capo. He just fights."
The capo hit you in the stomach.
"You can't hold a sewing needle in your hand."
"I'll fix it."
I came up.
He asked where I had come from.
He came up to me and said, "Where are you from?"
"Kleinmangelsdorf."
He had Kleinmangelsdorf, just like a Stockholmer living in Florida.
He said, "I'm from Stockholm."
Stockholm is exactly where he's at home.
He said, "You go to the side. Everyone else goes to work."
All my acquaintances from my town felt bad for me, they thought.
That they would beat me to death.
I haven't said, because I lied to him.
Then he told me. He had worked there in 1938 or 1935.
He had already worked there on the Autobahn.
He asked me where I had come from.
I said, "We built this and that."
He said that was right.
The same civil engineer, he came with a black coat and a huge hat.
We called him "Galor," like a priest.
So you had mutual acquaintances?
Mutual acquaintances. He said, "I'm not lying to him."
He said, "You shouldn't work down there, you should work in sorting."
"What is sorting?"
He asked if I was hungry. I said, "Who isn't hungry? I'm always hungry."
He gave me an SS-bread, a piece of bread, with a piece of sausage.
He said, "You can take half a bread for my sausage."
I came up. It was the old Germans who were Jehovah's Witnesses.
And then there was a Jew who was from Holland.
He said he was a millionaire in Holland.
He owned a fur company in Amsterdam.
I don't remember his name.
He was 40 years old.
I saw him go under the table and put on a shirt.
I will never forget if I am to live or when I am to die.
A white shirt.
I thought there were a million shirts, why did he take that one?
Then I told my brother-in-law it looked like I missed the roll call.
After roll call, I'll be there soon. 'Where are you going?' he said.
'I have to do something.'
Then he came to a barracks.
I think it was 95 or 96. I don't remember which barracks.
The boys who worked there were called Volgas. They worked for a commando unit called Volgas.
From the sewers, they're going to gas the Germans for this.
They cooked or something.
They had to weld with gas, everything.
There were many civilians, Poles, Germans.
They did business with them.
You come in and ask them, 'What do you have for sale?' 'Where do you work?'
'I work in tailoring.' 'Do you have any shirts or pullovers?'
'Yes.'
My father always told me, 'A customer gives you what you need to do.'
'You should care more.'
'A customer teaches you what to do.'
You have to translate that.
'A customer teaches you what to buy.'
He comes and says, 'A blue jacket.'
'You should buy a blue jacket.'
'If he wants it, he should get it.'
'He said he wants the shirts.'
These were people who came from outside the camp.
They worked outside the camp.
They were the ones who wanted to do business with.
They wanted a shirt.
'I have a shirt. How much will you give me?'
So he gave me five, six shirts.
'Yesterday I got ten.'
'You'll get ten days too.'
'I'm going to go and get it.'
'You know I'm a supplier.'
'He buys.'
So I tell my brother-in-law: From tomorrow:
'God, do you want me?'
'Are you going to have it?'
'It was enough.'
'It will be enough as much as you want.'
'So a shirt was worth ten cigarettes.'
'But you didn't smoke?'
'I didn't smoke at that time.'
'You used the cigarettes for something else.'
'I bought bread, I bought something.'
'How much did a bread cost?'
'A bread cost four, five cigarettes.'
'A whole loaf?'
'A whole loaf.'
Where did you get a loaf of bread?
It was available.
Bakery workers stole them, they worked in...
Everything was available.
Whatever you wanted, even currency.
Where did you get currency?
All currencies were available.
In Auschwitz, there was a commando unit called Canada.
That was Canada, where people worked.
People came from home, you had to take things from their pockets.
They sorted gold to gold, money to money.
Some kept...
You worked and also ate bread.
That's what my father said.
If you worked as a baker, you were never hungry.
So you did business with the Canada commando?
No, they weren't with us, they were somewhere else.
They smuggled it in.
You could buy it, there were people who worked.
Where was the Canada commando?
The Canada commando was in Birkenau, it was in Birkenau.
And that was in Auschwitz?
Yes, I was in Auschwitz.
So.
That day I bought a shirt.
I said I had ten cigarettes.
I had two cigarettes.
No, I got three cigarettes, my brother-in-law.
And at the same time, from Krakow, from Plaszów, comes...
A commando, a man named Roman Fajk.
He was a barrack orderly.
That's what he's called in Swedish.
He was internal service?
In Birkenau.
He fetched food, everything.
I immediately became good friends with that man.
I say he's honest.
You can't bring the cigarettes with you.
So I know that, Roman.
You'll give it, you'll be my partner.
I steal and you'll get some too.
Okay, we were there together, Sweden until 1945.
Around the same time, my brother-in-law was sick.
He got typhus.
He had to go to...
...the infirmary.
He didn't come back.
And I was alone.
I didn't know what to do.
Completely alone, nothing.
"Then a man came to me."
"He says he met a girl."
From my town.
And says my sister is alive.
"Which one was it?"
"The youngest, Reisl."
"He knew she was alive, he had..."
"He also worked in Union."
"Union, that's the ammunition factory."
"It was with men."
"And I asked him, go and ask her."
"I'll send her some cigarettes."
"He wrote, then he appeared."
He can't say where he saw her.
And that man was very honest.
Very, he was our customer actually, before the war.
He was from Starnu.
And I helped him a lot.
A shawl.
"He could sell it."
I helped him a lot.
Then I helped acquaintances from my town immensely.
So I can tell an episode.
"When I entered another camp with clothes."
"If one was to exchange."
"Then I met a boy who was leaving."
"He had worked in a coal mine."
"He came back."
"I gave him warm socks."
"Shoes, everything."
"So you helped them?"
"I shared."
"I wasn't selfish, so I had to share."
"In Auschwitz, did you meet Roma?"
"In Birkenau."
"I saw Roma on the other side."
"You saw them there."
"You mentioned Jehovah's Witnesses, did you meet them?"
"Jehovah's Witnesses were there at the same time."
"They didn't want to talk to us."
"They were much older, they received packages from home."
"Did they receive better treatment?"
"They received better treatment than Jews."
"Did you know in Auschwitz?"
"Did you hear rumors about what was happening outside the camp?"
"Nothing."
"About the war, how the war was going?"
"We knew there was a youth room in Birkenau."
"They worked in the baggage room, the Jews."
"And there was an uprising."
"The ones who worked in the crematorium?"
"Yes, we heard that."
"Did you hear about medical experiments?"
"We heard about that, we knew."
"There was a guy from Belgium."
"He was in our block, they took him."
"What did they do?"
"He came back just when he was done."
"He was apathetic, nothing."
"After a few months, he transformed just like a woman."
"He started growing breasts."
"He had been subjected to some kind of treatment."
"Yes."
"Did you ever get sick yourself?"
"Touch wood, no."
"Those who got sick, what happened to them?"
"They didn't want to go to the infirmary."
"Because they knew if they went to the infirmary, they wouldn't come back."
"You stayed with Roman Feig?"
"Yes, I stayed with Roman Feig all the way."
"All the way, until later."
"Was there any, what you heard about besides in the crematorium, in Birkenau?"
"Any other opposition or any kind?"
"That's what I remember, it was 1944."
"What happened then?"
"Five trucks came to Auschwitz, not to Birkenau, to Auschwitz."
"They picked up uniforms with a requisition."
"We loaded them, and they didn't fight, the SS."
"With such big whips, 'Louse, Louse, Schnell, Schnell, Schnell, Schnell.'"
"We loaded uniforms, female, male uniforms, SS, only SS."
"Then it turned out they were partisans."
"The uniforms."
"They could have been brought into the camp by trucks."
"They must have been perfect, to have obtained perfect or forged requisitions."
"The papers, the documents."
"And they brought uniforms to use as partisans."
"1944."
"It was 1944."
"When was the camp liquidated?"
"The camp in '45, January '45."
"What happened then, can you tell?"
"What happened was that Kapo Ignaz told me, 'We're moving from here.'"
"Since you were so kind, I helped him with schnapps."
"What was his nationality, Ignaz?"
"German."
"He was German."
"A German criminal."
"He was a green triangle."
"He was fat."
"But you had good contact with him?"
"Very good."
"He treated me like a prisoner when he worked on the autobahn."
"I went to the same hell as him."
"They treated him just as we treated them."
"He said they would liquidate the camp."
"You'll go with a cart carrying provisions for the Germans."
"A cart, meaning a horse and carriage?"
"A horse-drawn platform."
"Roman and I rode in that cart."
"We arrived in Breslau."
"An SS man was drinking with him."
"He was a real drunkard."
"I've never seen anyone so drunk in my life."
"I've never seen a man drink like that."
Was he on the cart to Breslau?
"Yes, he was."
"The two told me they were leaving."
"From the transport."
"I went to Breslau to our client, Jan Godowski."
"He was angry and said I shouldn't be alone at home."
"The Germans don't want to, I don't trust them."
You mean you looked for Jan Godowski in Bendzin?
"No, in Breslau."
"He lived in Breslau, at our station."
"He didn't want to take me in, he asked if I wanted money."
"I don't know what it is."
"Then we went back."
"We went back to the train."
"Then we left from..."
We'll cover that on the next tape. This is the end of tape two.