1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,200 1997. We are going to interview David Szpigler. 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,160 My name is Jan Levy. 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,480 We are in Stockholm, Sweden, and the interview language will be Swedish. 4 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:17,320 My name is Jan Levy. 5 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:21,280 Today's date is May 20, 1997. 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:26,040 I will interview David Szpigler, and we are in Stockholm, Sweden. 7 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:38,560 I'll start by asking you to state your name. 8 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:40,720 My name is David Szpigler. 9 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:42,760 Do you have a middle name? 10 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:44,360 Chaim David. 11 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:49,160 When were you born? 12 00:00:49,160 --> 00:00:51,480 February 11, 1920. 13 00:00:51,480 --> 00:00:54,240 And that means you are now... 14 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:55,240 77. 15 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,840 You were born in... 16 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:00,280 Bendzin, Poland. 17 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,160 Can you spell Bendzin? 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:08,800 B-E-N-D-Z-I-N. 19 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:15,120 It's in Poland, and the nearest major city is Katowice. 20 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:22,760 Can you also start by telling me your father's name? 21 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,080 My father's name was Ojzer, and my mother's was Miriam. 22 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:29,520 And your father was born... 23 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:30,800 He was born in Wollbrom. 24 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,120 In Wollbrom, which is also nearby. 25 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,520 It's not far from Bedzin. 26 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:39,000 Approximately when was he born? 27 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,920 Around 1870, that time. 28 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:43,880 That time, late 1800s. 29 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:48,480 And your mother's name was Miriam, and she was born... 30 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:49,320 Her maiden name 31 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:50,320 Schweitzer. 32 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,360 And she was born in... 33 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:53,480 In Bedzin. 34 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,200 Also in the late 1800s. 35 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:58,200 In the late 1800s, yes. 36 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:02,920 Did you have siblings in your childhood home? 37 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,680 Yes, there were four of us siblings. 38 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:06,960 Three sisters. 39 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,000 One is named Elke Beile. 40 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,920 When was she born? 41 00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:16,080 1900... 42 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,880 Early 1900s? 43 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:21,160 Early 1900s. 44 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,160 Elke Beile. 45 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,360 And then there was Cima. 46 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,680 She was born four years after the oldest sister. 47 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,400 Then the youngest sister is named Reisel. 48 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:38,040 And there was a seven-year difference between her and me. 49 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,640 Were they all married? Elke Beile... 50 00:02:41,640 --> 00:02:42,640 Yes, all were married. 51 00:02:42,640 --> 00:02:44,120 Elke Beile, what was her married name? 52 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:45,120 Abramczyk. 53 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:46,120 Abramczyk. 54 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:47,120 And Siman? 55 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,800 Cima was married, her name was Gleitzer. 56 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,080 And Reisel? 57 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,080 And Reisel was married, Rosenblom. 58 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:55,080 Rosenblom. 59 00:02:55,920 --> 00:02:56,920 And they all had children. 60 00:02:56,920 --> 00:02:59,000 Excuse me, all? 61 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,000 They all had children. 62 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:01,000 They all had children. 63 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:09,120 Let's see, about your childhood home in Bedzin. 64 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,040 Do you remember the address? 65 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:12,680 Kollontaj 9. 66 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:13,680 Colontaria 9. 67 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,360 And your father, what did he do? 68 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,760 We had a clothing business. 69 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:29,240 They had children's clothing, own production, wholesale and retail. 70 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:33,640 And your mother, what did she do? 71 00:03:33,640 --> 00:03:35,680 She helped in the store. 72 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:36,680 She helped in the store. 73 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,840 What language did you speak at home? 74 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:40,840 Yiddish. 75 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,720 And my father spoke German and Russian. 76 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,040 Same with my mother. 77 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,520 When did you learn Polish? 78 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,560 I learned it in school. 79 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:52,360 In school. 80 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,440 Your mother kept a kosher kitchen at home. 81 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:56,440 Strictly kosher. 82 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:57,440 Strictly kosher. 83 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:04,280 So, how would you describe your Jewish affiliation? 84 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:05,760 As Orthodox. 85 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:07,520 Orthodox in your childhood home. 86 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:12,240 There was a synagogue nearby, I know you've told me. 87 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:13,240 There was one. 88 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:14,520 On the same street? 89 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:15,520 Same building. 90 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:16,520 In the same building, even. 91 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,880 And the family went there, how often did you go? 92 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:22,880 My father went three times a day. 93 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:23,880 Three times a day? 94 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:24,880 Yes, three times a day. 95 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:25,880 He was truly 'frum'. 96 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:26,880 He was 'frum', yes. 97 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:31,880 Besides siblings, did you have relatives? 98 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:32,880 A large family. 99 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:33,880 A large family. 100 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:34,880 A very large family. 101 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:36,880 From my father's side and from my mother's side. 102 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:38,880 The largest family was from my mother's side. 103 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:51,880 My mother had about seven uncles, I think. 104 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:53,880 So it was a big family, a large clan. 105 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:59,880 How did you socialize? Was it on major holidays, birthdays? 106 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:03,880 Honestly, we didn't celebrate birthdays much in Poland. 107 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:11,880 On holidays, weddings, and such, it was almost 90 percent just family. There were over a hundred! 108 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:16,880 You went to school in Bendzin? 109 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:17,880 In Bendzin, yes. 110 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:18,880 Can you describe that school? 111 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:25,880 Agudat Israel. It was a religious Orthodox school from Agudat Israel, a boys-only school. 112 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:31,880 What percentage of the population in Bendzin was Jewish? 113 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,880 80 percent of the population was Jewish. 114 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:36,880 It was a Friday evening, and Jewish life was very prominent. 115 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,880 All the shops were closed; not a single shop was open on Saturday. 116 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,880 So the school you attended was a yeshiva? 117 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:43,880 Approximately so, yes. 118 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:48,880 One studied 60-70 percent Talmud and Mishnah. 119 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,880 And 30 percent was mandatory Polish. 120 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:57,880 Polish history, arithmetic, all that. 121 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:03,880 So you had Jewish schoolmates, did you only have Jewish friends? 122 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:05,880 Only Jewish friends. 123 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:16,880 At the time you went to school, in the 30s, late 20s, early 30s, do you remember any anti-Jewish sentiments? 124 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,880 Yes, there were. I remember it was 1933. 125 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:25,880 There was a 'däckis', similar to what neo-Nazis are called here in Sweden. 126 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,880 They wrote 'Don't buy from Jews'. 127 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:31,880 1933? 128 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:36,880 1933, exactly at the same time as in Germany, that's when we felt it. 129 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:42,880 We had a wholesale business, and our customers were the 'Volksdeutscher', as they were called after the war. 130 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:50,880 They came to shop, especially on Sundays, and ordered their goods, but they wouldn't say they bought from us Jews. 131 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,880 They came in through the back door, so to speak. 132 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,880 Would you say there were many Volksdeutscher in Bendzin? 133 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:05,880 There weren't that many Volksdeutscher in Bendzin itself, but there were some from Silesia, Katowice, Chorzow, Rybnik at that time. 134 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:11,880 What were your hobbies besides school? 135 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,880 What did young Jewish boys do? 136 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:24,880 We were part of 'Shomer Hadati', a Mizrahi organization. Activities like football weren't allowed for religious Jews. 137 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,880 Religious Jews were not allowed to do that at that time. 138 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:34,880 That was it, and we went to camps together. 139 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:43,880 You mentioned that in 1933, when Nazism emerged in Germany, do you remember if your parents were worried? 140 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:48,880 They were very worried about what could happen. 141 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,880 Did they ever talk about leaving Poland? 142 00:07:52,880 --> 00:08:00,880 We had nowhere to go; where would we go? It was closed everywhere. 143 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:06,880 Did you finish school before the war? 144 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:13,880 I finished school before the war, around 1936-1937, and helped in the shop. 145 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:14,880 You helped your father in the shop? 146 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:15,880 Yes. 147 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:19,880 So that's where you were when the war broke out in 1939? 148 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:20,880 Yes. 149 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,880 Can you describe how you remember the outbreak of the war? 150 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:39,880 When the war broke out in 1939, I saw that I had to retrieve some uncut goods and put them in the cellar. 151 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,880 The source should not be damp. 152 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:54,880 We used corrugated paper, a specialty back then, put into preserves. 153 00:08:54,880 --> 00:09:00,880 Everything was cleared, we rearranged goods, said we'd measure three meters of items. 154 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,880 We could sell, but didn't know what would happen after the war. 155 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:12,880 In 1939, all shops, Jewish shops, had to be closed. 156 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:20,880 Small shops were confiscated directly; larger ones had 'trustee merchants' installed. 157 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:34,880 Then a trustee merchant, Jan Godowski, came, doing big business. My father offered him to be his trustee. 158 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:36,880 He promised to help as much as he could. 159 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,880 Can you describe what a 'trustee merchant' actually was? 160 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:51,880 He was a decent person, not a typical businessman, honest and paid cash. 161 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:53,880 But he wasn't Jewish, then? 162 00:09:53,880 --> 00:10:13,880 He was Polish, lived in Wrocław. After the war, he worked with coal mines, where people bought on installment through him. 163 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:27,880 For example, 5-6 thousand people worked there. If they needed clothes, he'd deduct installments from their monthly coal mine salaries. 164 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:32,880 And in that way, our turnover increased. 165 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,880 But did your father get any of that money? 166 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:38,880 I'm sure he did. 167 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:40,880 So, not all income was confiscated? 168 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,880 No, no, no, he allowed it. 169 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:48,880 What do you remember when the German army marched into Będzin? 170 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:57,880 It was terrible. I remember a Saturday, they had just arrived, it was awful. 171 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,880 On a Friday, the war broke out, and by Saturday, they were already in Będzin. 172 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:03,880 Can you describe what you saw when they came? 173 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:14,880 They came with small motorized cars, not tanks, and positioned themselves on every corner. 174 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,880 And you weren't allowed to go out at all. 175 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:19,880 There was a curfew for everyone. 176 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:26,880 And on Saturday, the seventh day of the war, it was. 177 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,880 They had burned a synagogue. 178 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:31,880 Which was in the same house? 179 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,880 No, not in the same house, a large synagogue. 180 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:47,880 A large synagogue, and then they burned an old palace, its ruins, in Będzin. 181 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:55,880 They burned the entire Jewish area. It wasn't a ghetto, just where poor Jews lived. 182 00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:02,880 And that week, they burned my uncle. 183 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:03,880 He burned inside? 184 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:08,880 He burned inside. They burned him that first week. 185 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,880 What happened to your family? Were you allowed to stay? 186 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:18,880 We stayed, until 1940, until I went to the camp. 187 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,880 Were you forced to move in 1940, or? 188 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:23,880 No, no, no, I moved to the camp. 189 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:25,880 And they stayed? 190 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:26,880 They stayed. 191 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,880 How long did the family stay, even though you weren't there? 192 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,880 They stayed until 1942, 43 I think. 193 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,880 Because a ghetto was formed in Będzin? 194 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,880 A ghetto in Będzin, yes. 195 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:48,880 So what happened to your work after the war broke out, and before you went to the camp in 1940? 196 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:56,880 Nothing. For two years, I worked on the Black Market, tied to a small piece of fabric. 197 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,880 I went to a tailor; he sewed trousers or other items. 198 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:08,880 I got some money, bought bread, and stood in line for it. 199 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:09,880 Was there rationing? 200 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,880 There was rationing immediately. 201 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,880 Did you have to wear the Star of David? 202 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:18,880 Not immediately. 203 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:20,880 Do you remember roughly when? 204 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,880 In 1940, before I came to the camp, we had to wear the stars. 205 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,880 How did you end up in the camp? Can you tell me about it? 206 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:34,880 They wanted young labor for the work camp, and they gave the request to the community, 207 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:40,880 the Jewish community, saying they wanted two thousand people. 208 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:42,880 And they had a list. 209 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:44,880 Who was 'they'? 210 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:45,880 The community. 211 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:53,880 The community had a list of young people, and we received it a week before. 212 00:13:53,880 --> 00:14:00,880 It was that weekend, during the major Jewish arrests in Jönkipu, that we received a summons, 213 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:06,880 and it stated that we should report on Shemini Atzeret. 214 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:11,880 It was the seventh day of Sukkot, that we should report. 215 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:20,880 There was a summons for an orphanage in Sommerheim, for those without parents. 216 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,880 The children without parents lived there, where they were fed. 217 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:29,880 And then we were to meet there and transport ourselves to Klein-Mangestorf. 218 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:31,880 Where is Klein-Mangestorf? 219 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:37,880 Klein-Mangestorf is between Opole and Breslau. It was in Kreis Opole. 220 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:39,880 And that was then the German Reich... 221 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,880 It was the German Reich. It was the German Reich during the last war. 222 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:47,880 We were to build RAB, called Reich Autobahns. 223 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,880 You were to build that. And you were, what did you say, two thousand young people? 224 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:56,880 We were two thousand young people, from Bendzin and Sosnowiec, from Dąbrowa, from Olkusz, 225 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,880 all around, from Czeladź; only Jews came there. 226 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:02,880 You were to build highways. 227 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,880 Highways. And it wasn't SS, no, it was SA men. 228 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:08,880 Who were guards. It was SA who were guards. 229 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:10,880 They were SA guards. 230 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,880 And how was the work? 231 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:19,880 The work was enormous; it was 20 cubic meters of sand, 232 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:24,880 one had to shovel cubic meters into carts; are they called 'lårorna' in Swedish? 233 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:26,880 A wooden box. 234 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,880 One must say, a small wagon like that. 235 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:34,880 20 cubic meters of sand; if it was stone, it was eight to ten. 236 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,880 One had to use a pickaxe. 237 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:39,880 And break it apart? 238 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:41,880 Break it apart and lift it up. 239 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:48,880 And then it's excavated, and then the rollers come, 240 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,880 and then we pour concrete. 241 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:52,880 Was it heavy work? 242 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:54,880 Very heavy work. 243 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:56,880 That sounds heavy. 244 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,880 How was the treatment during the work itself? 245 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,880 During the treatment itself, there was a, 246 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,880 The foreman was a German who was the work supervisor. 247 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:08,880 A civilian? 248 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:10,880 A civilian, a civilian. 249 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,880 He was very quiet. 250 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,880 He then gathered them and divided them into groups. 251 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:25,880 One will dig, some will concrete. 252 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,880 And the worst work was from the beginning, '40. 253 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:35,880 We had to clear a forest, clean it and pull out all the stumps. 254 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:37,880 And there was no way to deal with those stumps back then. 255 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:39,880 You'd need a tractor to rip it up. 256 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,880 We had to dig around it and pull it by hand. 257 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,880 Pull by hand, manual labor, everything by hand. 258 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:46,880 Everything by hand. 259 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:47,880 No machines. 260 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:53,880 Some had to cut them one meter long from the trees. 261 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,880 And then a truck came and loaded them up. 262 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,880 Where they went with it, one doesn't know. 263 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:01,880 Where did you live during the work at night? 264 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:02,880 We lived in the barracks. 265 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:03,880 In the barracks? 266 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,880 In the barracks. We walked with the guards to work. 267 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:13,880 Through a small community, it was called a 'Dorf' (village) in German. 268 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:14,880 A small village. 269 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:15,880 A small village. 270 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:20,880 One hundred percent of those Germans knew where we were. 271 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,880 No contact with civilians. 272 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,880 At first, there was mail from home. 273 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:29,880 And we could get packages too. 274 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,880 Until 1941. 275 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,880 So you were there from autumn 1940 until... 276 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:37,880 Until 1943. 277 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:38,880 Until 1943. 278 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,880 In the labor chain. 279 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,880 In various labor camps and to the Eastern Front in 1941. 280 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:46,880 Exactly. 281 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,880 1941 when Germany attacked the Russians. 282 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,880 When Germany attacked the Russians after two, three weeks. 283 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:54,880 It was June. 284 00:17:54,880 --> 00:18:02,880 Then a large delegation arrived in military and civilian clothes. 285 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,880 We had to strip completely naked. 286 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:07,880 And there was a medical examination. 287 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,880 Just as one says. 288 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,880 They examined lungs, hearts, everything. 289 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:20,880 And from the couple of hundred of us there, about 90-100 remained. 290 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:22,880 Then they had picked us out. 291 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,880 Isolated us immediately. 292 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:31,880 We received gray uniforms that the Todt Organization had used. 293 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:33,880 Theirs were black, and ours were gray. 294 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:35,880 It was a labor organization. 295 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:37,880 Labor organization, yes. 296 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:46,880 And at the same time, we received a whole loaf of bread with sausage. 297 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:52,880 We opened wagons covered with tarpaulins. 298 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,880 So you were transported? 299 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,880 We were transported from Mangelsdorf, Klein-Mangelsdorf. 300 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:00,880 Outside Breslau. 301 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:02,880 And from Breslau, other Jews came up. 302 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,880 Then we traveled for two weeks to and between Minsk and Kharkov. 303 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:08,880 You were traveling for two weeks? 304 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:10,880 Two weeks, yes. 305 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:12,880 To and between Minsk and Kharkov. 306 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,880 Do you know roughly where you... 307 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,880 Nothing, by then it was already SS. 308 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:23,880 The first time we slept under SS guard, we were in transport wagons. 309 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:28,880 On each wagon, there were four SS men. 310 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,880 And you were then 80-90-100 people specially selected? 311 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,880 From that location. 312 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:35,880 From that location? 313 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:36,880 Yes. 314 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:37,880 And then together with others from Breslau. 315 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:38,880 How many did you think there were, roughly? 316 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,880 We were about 500-600 people. 317 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:43,880 And we lived in the barracks. 318 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:45,880 You lived in barracks somewhere between Minsk and Kharkov? 319 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:47,880 Not in the barracks. It was in the SS barracks. 320 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,880 We lived in the wagons we were in. 321 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,880 You lived in the wagons you were transported in? 322 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:54,880 And what did the work consist of? 323 00:19:54,880 --> 00:20:00,880 The work involved the Russian railway being wider than the European one. 324 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:05,880 We had to remove a rail... 325 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:06,880 And move it? 326 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,880 And move it. The worst was 1941-42, it was so cold. 327 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:17,880 If they had warned us a rail would break, 328 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,880 then ten people would have died together. 329 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,880 Did any break? 330 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,880 Unfortunately, none broke. We were so careful. 331 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:34,880 And the worst was that we had received Dutch... 332 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:36,880 What's it called? 333 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:37,880 Clogs. 334 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:38,880 Garden. 335 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:39,880 Yes, yes. Dutch clogs. 336 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,880 And the worst is that when you walk on a slope... 337 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:44,880 When it's slippery. 338 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:46,880 It forms like a big mountain. 339 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:48,880 A big lump underneath. 340 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:50,880 Under it. 341 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:51,880 Hard to walk. 342 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:52,880 Hard to walk. 343 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:57,880 And they came with whips, shouting 'laus, laus, laus'. 344 00:20:57,880 --> 00:20:59,880 And you carried the rails? 345 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:05,880 Yes, we carried the rails. We removed the rails and took out the spikes. 346 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:10,880 And put in... The German engineers measured them. 347 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,880 As foremen? 348 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:14,880 As foremen. They were German, civilians. 349 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:16,880 They didn't speak to us at all. 350 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,880 And they drew with white chalk, or with red chalk. 351 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,880 It's the distance between one difference and another. 352 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,880 We put it in and hammered it. 353 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,880 Hammered it down to the same gauge as... 354 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:30,880 The same track as European ones. 355 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:31,880 In the rest of Europe. 356 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,880 And then a German official came from Germany to Russia. 357 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:37,880 To the German armies in Russia. 358 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:45,880 The worst was fetching water from a tanker in the evening. 359 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,880 So we could wash and drink. 360 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:50,880 By morning, it was ice. 361 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:52,880 The 1940s had cold winters. 362 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,880 40, 41, 42. 363 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,880 40, 41, 42 were cold winters. 364 00:21:57,880 --> 00:21:58,880 Yes. 365 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:00,880 How cold could it get in Belarus? 366 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,880 Maybe 35-40 degrees. 367 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:03,880 35-40 degrees below zero. 368 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:05,880 What clothes did you have? 369 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,880 The same as always, nothing. 370 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:10,880 Pants, a shirt. 371 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,880 Pants, a shirt, a sweater, a jacket. 372 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:15,880 That was it. No gloves, nothing. 373 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:16,880 No gloves, nothing. 374 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,880 How many of you lifted a rail? 375 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:21,880 20 people. 376 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:22,880 20 people. 377 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,880 Did you ever drop one? 378 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,880 That happened too. 379 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,880 How did the SS guards react? 380 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,880 They beat us. We got hit. 381 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,880 What about the food? 382 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,880 You lived in train cars, but how was the food? 383 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:45,880 The food was very bad. 384 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:47,880 And the sanitary conditions? 385 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:49,880 There was nothing at all. 386 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,880 I remember a rail falling on my leg. 387 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:58,880 There was a guy, I think he was... 388 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:00,880 Not far from Bendzin. 389 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:02,880 He was going to study medicine. 390 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:04,880 Nothing was done. 391 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:06,880 Nothing. Blood was flowing. 392 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,880 So he took your urine, peed on the wound. 393 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,880 And took a piece from his jacket. 394 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:16,880 And put it on. 395 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,880 He thought it was broken. Thankfully, it wasn't. 396 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,880 I still have marks from it today. 397 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,880 So instead of iodine, you used urine to disinfect? 398 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:27,880 Urine, it's supposed to disinfect it. 399 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:29,880 You don't have any lasting issues from it today? 400 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:31,880 Sometimes I do. 401 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:32,880 But you didn't break your leg? 402 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,880 No, thankfully. 403 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,880 You were moved between... 404 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:39,880 We moved around. 405 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:41,880 Because you lived in train cars? 406 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:43,880 It was very easy for them. 407 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:48,880 As the railway narrowed, they could move you closer to the front? 408 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,880 Closer to places. 409 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,880 How long did you do this work? 410 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:55,880 Until 1943. 411 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,880 Until 1943? When in 1943? 412 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,880 Around February, February, February, March. 413 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:03,880 What happened then? 414 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,880 Many people were sick with typhus. 415 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,880 And they were breaking down, and there was nothing. 416 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,880 They didn't want to take them to the hospital there. 417 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:18,880 It was the Jewish hospital in Sosnowiec. 418 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,880 They picked me up, calling me 'Healthy'. 419 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,880 I was to carry them in train cars. 420 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:27,880 As a stretcher-bearer? 421 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:32,880 As a stretcher-bearer, moving them to Sosnowiec. 422 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,880 And Sosnowiec is near... 423 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,880 6 kilometers from Będzin. 424 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,880 So there was a Jewish hospital there in 1943? 425 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,880 Yes, before the war too. 426 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,880 How long were you there as a stretcher-bearer? 427 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:55,880 They heard in the ghetto there was a transport illness. 428 00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:02,880 And the community already knew I was coming. 429 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,880 They arranged a sweater for me when I arrived. 430 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,880 To be freed, or some leave, or something like that. 431 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,880 How much they paid, I don't know at all. 432 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:19,880 And so I worked in what's called 'Dulag'. 433 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:20,880 'Gulag'? 434 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:22,880 'Dulag'. 435 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:23,880 What does that mean? 436 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,880 A collection point. 437 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:34,880 And then they saw an SA man who... 438 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:42,880 'You were so good, you worked at RAB and then on the S-front.' 439 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:48,880 'You get two weeks' leave.' 440 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,880 'You don't need to wear the Jewish star,' he told me. 441 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:59,880 'You just need a paper from me to show you're returning to the labor camp.' 442 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,880 So you had a good reputation? 443 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:08,880 Yes, you did well building roads and railways. 444 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,880 That's why you got leave. 445 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:17,880 Did that mean you had contact with your hometown? 446 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,880 No. Contact was broken in '41. 447 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:22,880 I knew nothing more. 448 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,880 Did you know what was happening in the war? 449 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,880 Nothing. 450 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:33,880 So when you got leave to leave the hospital... 451 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,880 I had no money. I left Sosnowiec. 452 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,880 It was already blocked. Jews couldn't pass. 453 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,880 I walked from Sosnowiec to Będzin. 454 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:45,880 How far is that, approximately? 455 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:46,880 6-7 kilometers. 456 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,880 6-7 kilometers? You walked that? 457 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:51,880 Yes, I walked. 458 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,880 It was already blocked. Jews couldn't leave. 459 00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:00,880 I knocked and started speaking Yiddish. 460 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:06,880 I returned just as the Messiah came. 461 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,880 You returned to your parents' home in Kollontaj. 462 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,880 That was in early February-March. 463 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,880 Yes, it was in March. 464 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:18,880 Was the ghetto established? 465 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:20,880 It was established. 466 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,880 Had your parents been forced to move? 467 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,880 Yes, they had been forced to move. 468 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,880 What did you call the ghetto? 469 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,880 Kleinschödula. 470 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,880 Do you remember the address? 471 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,880 Nothing. 472 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,880 We can stop there. That's the end of tape 1.